Author Topic: Sanding the Suzuki Comb  (Read 11696 times)

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Hardtop Harry

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Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« on: October 02, 2015, 04:48:17 PM »
In the book, Love of Chromatic Harmonica, the author suggests a mod to the SCX model Suzuki and I'm keen to know if anyone has done it and whether it was successful - or even worth the trouble.

The author claims that the Suzuki's comb is not perfectly flat on the face that meets the mouthpiece backplate. He says that this should be sanded by using 500 grit sandpaper on a perfectly flat surface such as a piece of glass.
He claims that there will be a dramatic improvement making the instrument much more airtight.

I'm pretty sure I don't want to bigger up my axe but if this mod is as good as the book claims then I think I should go for it.

Has anyone tried this? Did it work?

Cheers, Harry

pyro_fire60099

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2015, 06:52:05 PM »
 All the time

Offline SlideMeister

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2015, 07:49:25 PM »
I sand ALL my combs, with the possible exception of aluminum ones. I've found that they're all pretty much all substandard.  Sometimes I can actually see the irregularity, sometimes I don't see it till the first swipe or two on my marble sanding block; but my axes always play better when I'm done  :)

Offline Winslow Yerxa

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2015, 07:56:48 PM »
Modern SCX models don't have a backing plate - the metal plate laid between the comb and the slide. If the backing plate is present, you can bond it to the comb face with rubber cement - which is removable and won't creep into the harmonica like lubricants will.

However, harmonicas that have a plastic front surface that recesses the reedplate (like the present SCX, Sirius, and G-48 models, Hohner 16-hole models, and the CX-12) don't need the metal backing plate anyway. If present it can be eliminated (NOT true for models that don't have that front surface, such as the SCT tremolo chromatic or the Fabulous, or models like the Hohner 270) and sanded lightly to flatten it. First remove the slide spring as this pokes up a few millimeters from the surface to be sanded.

Offline Keith

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 04:57:03 AM »
Well, as the saying goes, you learn something new every day8)

Slightly off topic, what do you think of the book?

Hardtop Harry

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2015, 03:37:29 PM »
Well, as the saying goes, you learn something new every day8)

Slightly off topic, what do you think of the book?

Keith, I love the book. It has about 674 pages of tips, interviews, reviews, modifications and playing advice on topics like; breathing, bending, vibrato etc.

It us great to have all this info in the one place.

Cheers

Offline Keith

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 05:43:48 AM »
Thanks Harry, I think I might put it on order.

Hardtop Harry

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2015, 12:59:29 PM »
I sand ALL my combs, with the possible exception of aluminum ones. I've found that they're all pretty much all substandard.  Sometimes I can actually see the irregularity, sometimes I don't see it till the first swipe or two on my marble sanding block; but my axes always play better when I'm done  :)
A.J. Do you even sand the wooden combs? The book I was referring to says you should only sand the plastic ones.

Cheers, Harry

Offline polarbear

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2015, 03:11:27 PM »
Hey thanks Guys!!!  I didn't know that a plastic comb could be sanded!. :o.......so I just gave it a try now, and it really does make a difference!! 8)

Offline SlideMeister

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2015, 09:35:23 PM »
I sand ALL my combs, with the possible exception of aluminum ones. I've found that they're all pretty much all substandard.  Sometimes I can actually see the irregularity, sometimes I don't see it till the first swipe or two on my marble sanding block; but my axes always play better when I'm done  :)
A.J. Do you even sand the wooden combs? The book I was referring to says you should only sand the plastic ones.

Cheers, Harry

Absolutely! The wooden ones usually need it the most; especially at the slide assembly side. (that's usually the biggest problem area.  Now, I'm starting to wonder about that book.  :)

Offline SlideMeister

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2015, 09:41:20 PM »
On plastic combs, I usually use #400 wet sandpaper on a chunk of marble.  Any surface (on any material) that's supposes to "seal" can't be too smooth or too flat. Smooth, flat surfaces require less pressure to seal. (which is helpful when working with nailed Hohner reed plates)

Tim Atwell

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2015, 12:27:40 AM »
OK, so while you are sanding the front, moving it along its length, how do you keep it from rocking side to side?  in other words, how do you keep the front square?  if you don't, the slide may bind up.

Balcom

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2015, 02:26:59 AM »
OK, so while you are sanding the front, moving it along its length, how do you keep it from rocking side to side?  in other words, how do you keep the front square?  if you don't, the slide may bind up.
Gently and carefully.  Dont put too much force on it. After few strokes clean sandpaper of clogging plastic.

Offline SlideMeister

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2015, 05:01:05 PM »
Right. There is a little technique involved. Just be sure to keep EVEN pressure on the comb. Some find it easier to only sand in one direction, but as I said, just pay attention to what you're doing and you'll be fine.

Offline Brendan Power

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2016, 03:18:12 PM »
Sanding the comb fronts flat is a small thing Suzuki should do at the factory before these chroms are assembled, not something we should have to do ourselves later. I urged them to do it when I worked for the company, but no luck. But it's not just Suzuki, Hohner are the same with their CX-12 combs: also un-sanded.

Sure the chroms work fine without sanding, but why put so much time and money into all the other great parts of the instrument and then neglect these finishing touches to make it the best it can be? How much time is saved not flat sanding the comb fronts: maybe 10, 20 seconds? False economy in my opinion.

The devil is in the detail with harmonicas, and ESPECIALLY with chromatics. These small touches not only make a difference in performance but they show that the manufacturer cares enough about their product to add them into the production line.


Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2016, 05:29:44 PM »
Some of the combs I see have been sanded, but not all. So they are doing it, but not all  the time.

Offline smojoe

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2016, 07:12:54 PM »

It isn't my intention to start a range war between cattlemen and sheep herders, but I never understood this klepto about combs. I fully admit that I am not a 'magician' of harp, but I have a modicum of experience and that has given me the attitude that there is no such thing as a bad comb. At least not out of the box. If there were bad combs, the makers would be out of business. 

The only extreme cases where I can see adjusting a comb is on a wooden model. A unit that has swelled or warped over time or due to neglect. And if the comb is that bad..junk it. It's false economy to keep it. And inasmuch as many great players have achieved that status playing on harmonicas where one could throw a cat right through the clearances between the various mouthpiece parts, I feel that there are only (maybe) THREE players on this list that could benefit from a perfectly cut comb. Most players wouldn't be able to use the insignificant advantage that a sanded comb would bring.

I mean, what are we talking about here? A few percent?. So lets say the three players I mentioned play at the 96 percentile. I can see where the additional 2 or 3% might give them that extra edge. An edge in a competitive world where a few percent make the difference between champ and ...a chump.

But most players are not at that level, and the difference won't... a. make them any better b. they won't be able to tell. and c. the audience won't be able to tell. So it all comes down to this. IF you think you need a perfectly sanded comb, I think you should do it. It will tend to put your mind at ease. But otherwise, a light bead of white water based glue set into the comb/mouthpiece juncture seams will do the job.

smo-joe 

Offline Brendan Power

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2016, 02:54:29 AM »
You're right Smo-Joe, it's just a small percentage of difference between the adequate stock instruments and ones that are customised. But that's where I live :)

And quantifying that percentage is impossible. One person's 3% is another person's 30%. It's not all in the mind, the differences in playability from making these little improvements are there, but what importance one attaches to them varies with the individual. Some, like me, love tinkering with harmonicas to personalise them and extract the maximum performance. Others want to just pick em up and play and would prefer never to have to undo a single screw to see what's inside, let alone adjust anything. I know plenty of players like that, and I can appreciate their point of view. I'm the same with cars, not interested!

But with harmonicas we tinkerers get a lot of pleasure out of tweaking this and that. The fun of doing it adds to the % increase in performance and perhaps magnifies it in our minds. But it makes us happy :)

Different strokes for different folks, vice la difference!




Offline smojoe

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2016, 12:26:55 PM »

Well I have also tinkered with harmonicas. 1956-1962. and 1991-present. Along with a plethora of tinker hobbies. I have built many diverse things. And trust me, I wasn't referring to you. You happen to be one of the THREE that I was referring to. One whom can wring the most from harp AND make it count.

And I agree with you on the mental state analogy. Some people don't feel complete unless they are over analyzing stuff. But there's such a thing as over doing it. 

smo-joe (BTW, I'm the same with cars too,  :)   

Offline Edward Brock

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2016, 03:11:27 PM »
Well there you go boys & girls.
I'm too old to give a flip about sanding anything except the splinters
on the coffee table. I like to play it as it comes but could care less about
anyone else sanding to less than .000001 clearance if that's what they like.
I'm not at nor will I ever be at the playing level to notice the difference.
I just try to buy a pretty good harmonica to begin with and let'er rip.
In the "Old Days" I used to be that fanatical with my cars but now I just want
the thing to start and take me there & back.
Sand it or don't, just enjoy whatever you play.

Offline smojoe

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2016, 07:32:10 PM »

Yeah Ed, I can dig it. I have had a Charger Daytona race car, a Shelby 289 with 341 h.p., and other goodies. I currently have a 2006 Scion Xb station wagon. 1500cc/99h.p. It is the B E S T  car I have ever had. Never lets me down. And considering the cost of good leather shoes, almost cheaper than walking. lolol.

But heres a story about combs. First of all, over the almost 25 years that I have been watching 'Brendan..the Tower of Power', I have been impressed with everything he has done and said. I consider him a harmonica treasure. There are those, however, who are into combs and most of the stuff I see is ok..but nothing to write home about. And while I'm no maestro by any stretch, a perusal of my you tubes should ?? show that I'm not exactly a virgin at this either. 

Two fellows insisted that I give them my favorite harp. They then proceed to sand the backs of the plates, and place them on one of their exotic combs. So the tolerances are now zero. The harp was no better. In fact it was quieter, and had lost it's..lets say..'bite'. The back pressure was throwing me, and I wound up putting the plates back on the original plastic comb.

As I keep saying..only my opinion.

smo-joe

Tim Atwell

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2016, 08:23:26 PM »
it's true. a harmonica can be too tight.

Offline Jimmy Halfnote

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2016, 10:20:48 AM »
it's true. a harmonica can be too tight.

 Maybe Tim, never came across one though so as to judge, don't think such a thing exists in a stock Chromatic. Especially in 16 hole form. Personally i like a bit of back pressure, i am sure there are many others who find dynamics easier with a bit of resistance ( gears), rather than a freewheeler. Maybe it is coincidence but the two tightest 16 holers i own both have brass combs.( stock)

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Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2016, 11:38:18 AM »
My tightest chromatic is a Vern Smith Hands Free, with 270 plates.
It's the mouthpiece that makes it so airtight.

Offline smojoe

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2016, 01:30:51 PM »

I (personally) think that combs get an inordinate amount of blame. I once had a 64 that was a screen door. The plates fit to the comb well. So Joe, I guess it needed gapped? Nope, the gaps were fine. Actually lower than most. So Joe, the mouthpiece leaked? Nope, the entire assembly had no air escaping. Crack in the comb? Nope. Too severe a mouthpiece bow..allowing the ends to be tight but the middle to be shaped like an ox-bow? Nope. So where was the air escaping from?

I came to the conclusion that the reeds were dead. You could blow medium, you could blow hard, the volume was still low and the reeds had no 'carry'. They didn't sing. I felt that this batch of reeds were cut from dead brass. Brass that was of an alloy that wasn't even close to 'springiness'. So (like Billy Joe MacAllister) I threw it off the Caloosahatchee bridge.

smo-joe 

Offline Edward Brock

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2016, 02:23:12 PM »
Don't get me wrong. I am Totally Impressed with the things Brendan Powers comes up with.
I think he is off the chart when it comes to innovation in the Harmonica world.
If someone feels, thinks or in any other way desires a comb to have extra sanding then they
should get after it for all it's worth.
I HAVE noticed some don't feel as air tight as others so I just put them in the Bottom of the drawer
and play something else. I figure it just might be me. Personally, Me Only, I like Suzuki & Easttop and
I have a couple of 260's that seem to me to be sufficiently air tight enough to keep this fat boy satisfied.  I am still curious about the Brass combs but until my ship comes in I will stay in my corner sing along with Mitch.

Offline Jimmy Halfnote

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2016, 02:46:38 PM »
 Well let us look at it this way Smo-Joe, on a 270 for example the same comb is used for for a Middle C model as a Tenor C , and every key in between. It must suit one over another somehow.
         The models with brass precision machined combs are engineered and geared towards specific models, plus on a 16 hole the brass has the quality of rigidity and strength, reed-plates are thicker and heavier than they used to be, an ABS comb is a bit on the flimsy side to hang everything from on a 16 holer imo, this shows up more at the bottom end of a 16, the top end not so much, and probably on a 12 hole the differences are minimal, only guessing there haven't played a 12 to compare.

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Offline smojoe

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2016, 04:39:17 PM »

Totally agree Jimmy.
I have a long held theory. I used to wire electric furnaces for foundries in Pittsburgh (internationally known for their work). I never ever noticed ANY stirring mechanism on the kettles. On the other hand, my one daughter (chef) makes pastries and is CONSTANTLY mixing ingredients. This gave me the theory that IF an group of different metals are (supposedly) mixed together to make an alloy, then that batch of different metals should be thoroughly mixed. Otherwise, like pastries, you could wind up with lumps, starchy parts, dry parts, gooey parts, etc. In other words: not as palatable as it should be. All you need is a questionable part of a mix to mess up the resultant part(s).

I feel the same about plastics. Depending on which plastic you use, there are 'recipies' (so to speak) for mixing..AND heating. Too hot and the mix is questionable, too cool and same thing. Too hot and maybe bubbles, too cool and the mix won't fill the voids in the mould correctly. While I personally think that plastic is much better than wood, some plastics are also better than others. I do, in fact, prefer metal combs but those can be outrageously expensive. I have made diatonic combs by hand from 2 pieces of 1/4" aluminum roadside sign plate sandwiched together. They worked fine. Chromatic combs are much more intricate. I have one cut from bronze bearing material. It IZ DA BOSS. It is a 48, and I imagine that if it were a 56 or a 64, there wouldn't be any difference. 

Now if I were to be in the market for, and as I said before I don't think I am at that level, I would tend to gravitate towards anything that Brendan makes. If he says they're good, I would tend to believe him. As for Suzuki products, I have no clue. As I don't have any. But maybe they CAN use some help. I wouldn't have a clue.

smokey-joe (retired)

Offline Jimmy Halfnote

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2016, 05:48:49 PM »
Great read Smo-Joe , just to back you up how about this ; i bought an expensive 16 holer a few years back, not mentioning makes but it was over the $500 mark. On both ends of the comb ( the solid sections), there were two large dimples, after sanding the comb flat ( yes it needed it), the dimples were and still are clearly visible, now i don't think they make any difference to the performance ? But do you remember the days when those types of dimples were common ? As in cheap plastic toys.

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Offline smojoe

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Re: Sanding the Suzuki Comb
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2016, 07:12:45 PM »

Ah yes Jimmy, I remember it well. I started out my childhood making plastic models. I got to the point where I would defer to some brands and avoid others. As I recall the 'Revell' corp. made the best. I could never understand why the parts could come on long sprues
and yet the parts at the ends of the sprues were still accurate and fit perfectly. Even to the extent that small human figures no larger than 1/2 to 3/4" tall (12.7-19 mm), yet STILL have facial features...AND the different figures had different faces. Wow.

Ok, it comes down to recipe. Injection molding is very expensive. The molten plastic has to be at a precise temperature. That temp. depends on the formulae of plastic being used. Then the injector pump has to have a defined pressure. Let's say 893.56 lbs (404.7 kg)
PER square inch. Then someone had to cut the original mold (hello Wally Peterman).

You need to go through about a wheelbarrow of material to get the run running right. That's the 'lead in'. You also have an end to the run. Called the 'run out'. So, it doesn't take a nuclear psychiatrist to see that this is quite involved. The net result being that a large run is necessary to amortize the expense. And as some plastics are better than others, problems..sometimes FUTURE problems can occur.
Like if you heat the plastic to 350 degrees instead of 325, you cook it and it may be brittle. OR if you use 900 lb of pressure instead of 893 lbs 9 ounces, the plastic  may become too compressed..making it tend to want to burst from it's initial shape.

Not sure if anyone is getting this? Ok, So 'I' (the famous I), using a small unimat lathe/milling machine, can cut a brass comb to custom specs. Of course I may have spent $325.oo for the lathe initially. But since I already had it, it's hard to figure that into the scenario. So what I'm saying is that cutting metal, corian, man made marble, acrylic, or lucite (perspex) is easier for an individual, but not a good choice for mass production.

I once had an: "Opel Doktor Vagon". A good sized metal car with pinkish orange wheels. The plastic was virtually the same as was once used on the Hohner 64. The car was bought around 1956. By 1984 the wheels had disintegrated. I had a Hohner which started to disintegrate in approx. the same number of years. I.E. purchased 1974, started falling apart 2001. It now has a modern black plastic comb.

As I had lived about 9 of my first 18 years in Austria/Italy/France, I feel that European toys were (except for that car) superior to American toys of the same era. I justify this with my theory that at the end of WWII, much of Europe had to turn to something other than belligerancy to keep the people working. And therefore made a concerted effort to make GOOD products.

Meanwhile, I am always coming across parts and assemblies where there was an air bubble or speck of trash in the part and the part failed. My attitude? If something is critical, dangerous to fail, needs precision, takes wear, it shouldn't be plastic. 

smo-joe