CX 12 fan club

[Grizzly]

Hi, Ray, while the components are similar, and some are interchangeable, the quality of workmanship and sound are far superior in the CX 12. I found I had to work harder to get a decent sound out of the Chinese knockoff. The CX 12, by comparison, is one of the easiest blowing harmonicas I own, including other Hohners and a Suzuki and Hering.

One thing John didn't mention: If you have problems with the CX 12, it's under warranty. The same can't be said of the WH 12.

The WH 12 was a good introduction, and an inspiration for getting a CX 12. I sold the WH 12 to a friend (who promptly dropped it and broke it beyond repair), and bought, over time, seven CX 12s, sold one to my friend and swapped one away. The remaining five get used, the white one the least because of its historical value.

Having started this Topic, I can welcome you, but you'll only understand why we like the CX 12 so much once you play one.

Or not. It has its detractors. It's just that the CX 12 is unique among the major manufacturers, and offers features no other harmonica has (WH 12 notwithstanding). And the biggest—literally—is the sound, followed by ease of playing.

All, as usual, IMHO.

Tom

[SlimHeilpern]

Has anyone talked about or considered the ethics of buying a WH-12 vs. CX-12? The reason I ask is I've always wondered about Hohner's patent on this design -- they must have one, I would think -- especially considering that it hasn't been around for that long. But I have no idea how patent law works internationally, and perhaps since the WH-12 is Chinese, it is not an issue, legally? But it would appear that (regardless of patent law) the CX-12 design was "stolen" in this case. I wonder what Hohner has to say about it? Anyone know?

- Slim.

[Grizzly]

Every harmonica design has been stolen from its originator, unless there is a licensing arrangement we're unaware of. Look at the slide package on a Thorens, a Kratt, a Hering, a Suzuki; look at the dimensions most of them use for the spacing of mouthplate holes; even the tuning layouts are identical.

There seem to be industry standards that most manufacturers abide by. It had to start somewhere, Hohner, Seydel ...

So, for whatever reason, Wuxi-Suzuki (I'm assuming no relationship to the Japanese Suzuki) has copied most of the features of the Hohner CX 12. The cover is the big difference visually; the other difference is in quality.

We'll never know if they have a secret deal with Hohner. But the WH 12, along with many other Chinese-made harmonicas, are more or less faithful copies of harmonicas that set the standards. And some well-established makers, Hohner among them, are having harmonicas built in their name in factories in China.

Tom

[SlimHeilpern]

Every harmonica design has been stolen from its originator, unless there is a licensing arrangement we're unaware of. Look at the slide package on a Thorens, a Kratt, a Hering, a Suzuki; look at the dimensions most of them use for the spacing of mouthplate holes; even the tuning layouts are identical.

There seem to be industry standards that most manufacturers abide by. It had to start somewhere, Hohner, Seydel ...

So, for whatever reason, Wuxi-Suzuki (I'm assuming no relationship to the Japanese Suzuki) has copied most of the features of the Hohner CX 12. The cover is the big difference visually; the other difference is in quality.

We'll never know if they have a secret deal with Hohner. But the WH 12, along with many other Chinese-made harmonicas, are more or less faithful copies of harmonicas that set the standards. And some well-established makers, Hohner among them, are having harmonicas built in their name in factories in China.

Tom

Perhaps, but before the CX-12, the basic designs were all pretty ancient and I thought patent law was based on protecting a design for some fixed period of time. That's why the WH-12 seems fishy to me, as it came out very shortly after the CX-12 (at least as I remember it). Anyway, I know very little about patent law, so I'm perhaps way off base.

There is some info about CX-12 patents on Pat Mission's site:

http://www.patmissin.com/patents/patents.html
http://www.patmissin.com/patents/DE4129816.html

- Slim.

[Grizzly]

Apparently, Hohner didn't pursue, or dropped, any patent infringement against Wuxi-Suzuki, as the WH 12 is still being offered for sale. (Or maybe Hohner was the copycat?) Sometimes the battle isn't worth it; the WH 12 has its fans, but it doesn't hold a candle to the CX 12. Even at one third the cost. Have you tried one, Slim? Would you play it in public, in place of a CX 12?

Tom

[SlimHeilpern]

... Have you tried one, Slim? Would you play it in public, in place of a CX 12?

Tom

I haven't really tried one. I inherited a broken one from my Dad that no longer fits together correctly (the slide will not move). I don't think I'd have any issue playing a working one in public, but I also would have no reason to as I own so many CX-12s ;-).

- Slim.

[Grizzly]

With your talent, Slim, you could make a kazoo sound good.

James Gallway played Muramatsu for years, now plays Nagahara, both high end flutes. But he's been known to make a Bundy flute sound good.

WH 12 isn't bad; CX 12 is better.

Tom

[SlideMeister]

FWIW The WH isn't exactly a CX. The mouthpiece (part) is noticeably narrower than the CX-12. I actually like that part better. The sound of the WH is definitely weaker than my CX Gold and from personal experience, the WH breaks easier     That being said, I still think the WH is still a great little Chromatic; probably the best one (of the hundreds) that come out of that big factory in Shanghai.

I have two WH-12s; One junker (for parts) and a good one for fun.

@ge

[Ray J]

When I bought my CH (eBay) I didn't have a clue what I was buying. It was my leap into having a go at playing harmonica.

Occasionally I give it a blow and forget that on some of my tunes, after my 16 holers. I suck/blow plastic, very funny.

Ray

[dddeon]

So, for whatever reason, Wuxi-Suzuki (I'm assuming no relationship to the Japanese Suzuki) has copied most of the features of the Hohner CX 12. The cover is the big difference visually; the other difference is in quality.

Wuxi-Suzuki might have a relationship with Suzuki. I say this because of what I have read from Wuxi-Suzuki's corporate profile webpage (http://www.wuxi-suzuki-musical.com/). Here is a clip from said page:

"WUXI SUZUKI MUSICAL INSTRUMENT CO., LTD.is a Sino-Japan JV comprehensive company specialized in producing musical instrument.It has 250 sets of special equipment such
as magnetic production capacity in producing 230,000 dozen
of harmonica.

In recent years, the company has introduced advanced tech -nology equipment to improve traditional production technolo-gy.The products of the company have many features such as light, clear and loud in playing wind instruments, elegancy in
tone color, accuracy in swing and so on. Recently, the com -
pany has developed high rate mediant, accent, musical scale with 12 of holes and so on high level harmonica.The company propagandizes and carries out actively ISO 9002 of quality assurance system in order to meet the needs of exploring abroad markets. In 1997 the company had passed smoothly
the attestation of ISO 9002 of quality assurance system.

Sincerely hope to cooperate with you. "


Could be a symbiotic relationship (Chinese manufacturing prowess and Japanese technical expertise)?

[SlideMeister]

I'm always ready for a good quality instrument. The problem I've had in the past was, getting a consistent high quality instrument out of these folks. I think they would do well to make a high end model and even charge accordingly. Of course it would take a few years to get the word out but in the end, they would be legitimate contenders in the worldwide Harmonica market.

@ge

[Grizzly]

Getting a little far afield from the topic; but it's worth considering that lower wages is one reason Chinese harmonicas don't cost as much. Even with the WH 12, how much are they paying the people who tune them, if they're selling here for under $40? Are their workers making a living wage?

Wuxi-Suzuki makes a large line of harmonicas, the market for which is probably Asia. It would be interesting to find out how many of the top chromatic harmonica players play Swans, Larks, Golden Butterflys, compared to Suzukis, Herings and Hohners.

If I'm going to take my craft seriously, I want the best tools. So far, the CX 12 fills the bill. In my limited experience, I've not played better for the price. The WH 12 lives in its shadow.

Tom

[SlideMeister]

While we're off topic:

The Asian pros I've seen and heard all seem to be playing Hohners and Suzukis.

I suppose we could open another thread on "why" if anyone's interested. 

@ge

[rgn39]

Harmonica construction is a fascinating subject. It seems that when you do something to gain something in one area you often give up something in another. I have been playing the CX12 almost exclusively now for awhile. I am totally given over to the round mouthpiece now. They are much easier for me to play than the flats. The question then becomes: how round? The CX12 has by far the largest radius of any that I have and I find it very comfortable to play but there does seem to be a drawdown, for me, that I am slowly becoming aware of. The problem seems to occur when I have to jump notes i.e. from 5 to 3 and back, from 4 to 7 etc. I am trying to learn a song now that has given me fits in this area so I tried a couple of other instruments and have found that it is much easier for me to do on my SC56 which has quite a bit smaller radius. I wonder if this is a problem for others and is the reason they have taken out a good portion of the radius on the CX12 Jazz model. Looking at pictures it is hard for me to determine how much of the roundness is left. Would it be possible for someone who has one to take a extreme closeup of the mouthpiece from the side. I would certainly appreciate it. I see that the CX12 Jazz cover is interchangable with the CX12. I wonder how much they go for?

[SlimHeilpern]

...
The problem seems to occur when I have to jump notes i.e. from 5 to 3 and back, from 4 to 7 etc. I am trying to learn a song now that has given me fits in this area so I tried a couple of other instruments and have found that it is much easier for me to do on my SC56 which has quite a bit smaller radius.
...
 I see that the CX12 Jazz cover is interchangable with the CX12. I wonder how much they go for?

There is a thread on this subject here:

https://forums.SlideMeister.com/general/jazz-cx-12-1262.0.html

I haven't heard of anyone lately that actually has CX-12 jazz covers (or the entire harmonica, for that matter) in stock, and the prices I've seen are not cheap. I did see one up close (inside a display case at the NAMM show) and the shape is drastically different, not really rounded much at all.

As for difficulty jumping around on a standard CX-12, I haven't noticed that myself. But sometimes changing to a differently shaped mouthpiece does seem to make something difficult seem easier, at least momentarily. I think it has more to do with getting yourself out of a rut than the actual shape of the mouthpiece. Try practicing the same thing for a long time on the SC56 and then switching back to the CX-12 and see if you still think it's easier on the SC56 just to be sure your brain isn't playing tricks on you ;-).

- Slim.

[rgn39]

. I did see one up close (inside a display case at the NAMM show) and the shape is drastically different, not really rounded much at all.

- Slim.

Thanks Slim. In the pictures I see it does look as if its hardly rounded at all and that would not be what I want. I will try as you suggest to see if its all in my head.

[harpman54]

I 'think' the slight differences in cover shapes and 'jumping' around on different harmonicas has to do with our own 'muscle memory'. I know one of the exercises I was taught had to do with dropping the chromatic to arm's length for a period between a measure or particular phrase. The point was that, on return to the mouthpiece to return precisely to the hole last used before the removal. Result was a precise sense of muscle memory.

I know that the way I hold the chrom gives me a sense of direction too (this of course applies to diatonic as well) but in a tacit sort of way, where my nose points in relation to my hand, and the movement in relation to my hands helps me 'find' where I'm at in making jumps. Switch to a slightly different shaped harmonica and an adjustment is necessary, albeit slight.

Does anyone concur?

bill

[rgn39]

I dont think the problem, with me, is indexing. One thing I really like about the CX12 is I seem to know where Im at much better than with most of my other harmonicas. I believe my problem is drag or friction. Ive been looking in the mirror and with the CX12 my entire lips are making contact with the surface of the mouthpiece while with the SC56 the top and bottom edge of my lips are not making contact consequently there has to be less drag when sliding my lips along the mouthpiece. I suppose if I could always keep the right amount of moisture on my lips it probably wouldnt make too much difference.

[Grizzly]

Picture, from Harp On Line: This is a partial profile, which shows that the original cover has had its cylindrical profile flattened to resemble the profile of a 260/270/280 mouthplate (although they differ from one another slightly).

I find the original cover very comfortable. It spaces my jaw so that I can play relaxed. Also, because there is no seam between mouthplate and cover (it's all of a piece), I'm not clamping down on it for a better seal. I don't think the Jazz cover would enhance the effect.

Because I tongue block, more of the cover enters my mouth, and it allows my tongue to be more forward. If I had it that far forward into my mouth for lip block (aka pucker), my tongue would be in the way unless I drew it back into my mouth, another source of muscle tension.

I do notice my accuracy suffers temporarily if I switch between harmonica models. One thing you'd commented on before, Ron, is that practice and experience have helped you adapt, and made you a better player. Jumping holes on a CX 12 seems to give you problems now, but that may clear up the more you play. I still make mistakes, but I'm pretty good with large jumps on my CX 12. I bet Slim is, too, and plays pucker style. Bill has a valid point about muscle memory. Yes, Bill, I concur. Ron, keep at it; you'll get better.

BTW, I like my CX 14—oops, my SCX 56.

Just read your reply, Ron. Yes, lubrication makes a big difference. Drag throws me off, too.

Tom

[rgn39]

Nice picture. The flower is a nice touch. They have pretty much eliminated the roundness. Scratch the Jazz for me. Practice, practice, practice.

[smojoe]

Harpman, I concur. I use my left thumb against my nose as a gage and sometimes when I play, people think I am holding my nose. I often drop the chromo down to my waist and am able to get back to exactly where I want to be.

smo-joe

[Greg McCrea]

SamAsh.com is listing the CX-12 for only $149.95 with free shipping (second day air too).  They list it "out of stock" but maybe you can lock in the price. 

Maybe it's time for another.  Merry Christmas to me   

Check it out: http://www.samash.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_CX12%20Harmonica%20Black_-1_10052_10002_-49967628_cmCategorySA-10001

[SlideMeister]

I know that the way I hold the chrom gives me a sense of direction too (this of course applies to diatonic as well) but in a tacit sort of way, where my nose points in relation to my hand, and the movement in relation to my hands helps me 'find' where I'm at in making jumps. Switch to a slightly different shaped harmonica and an adjustment is necessary, albeit slight.

Does anyone concur?

bill

Hmmm, there's a thought!

I guess I been doin' it the hard way.  Lately, I've been doing the bassplayer of the Adler trio thing; where you drop the thing to your waste and try to hit the same hole when you stick it back in your face. It's a good practice thing and it seems to work better under pressure (when folks are actually watching) I don't remember ever doing it on TV yet.  (little too much pressure there  ) 

@ge

[smojoe]

That's a flower? Oh Jeez, I thought it was a used Kleenex.............. lol
smo-joe

[Scotty]

SamAsh.com is listing the CX-12 for only $149.95 with free shipping (second day air too).  They list it "out of stock" but maybe you can lock in the price. 

Maybe it's time for another.  Merry Christmas to me   

Check it out:
http://www.samash.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_CX12%20Harmonica%20Black_-1_10052_10002_-49967628_cmCategorySA-10001

wow...i was excited about that great price especially since I still have a gift certificate from my goddaughter from Sam Ash from last year and am in the market to get a couple more CX-12's....clicked on the link, and am sadly disappointed to find out they're clearly only selling it in C.  :'(

They don't even hint that it's made in so many other keys...kind of unfair to new players who might not yet know about this particular instrument.

Already have it in C, Bb, A, F....want it in G and maybe Eb.  sigh....

Elizabeth (a/k/a Scotty)

[harpman54]

Tom, that jpeg file of the jazz CX-12 is great. Do you have it in a higher resolution....I'm thinking using it as a desktop backdrop?

bill

[Grizzly]

Bill, what you see is what I've got. You might want to try http://www.harponline.de/ and copy their picture; it's where I got it from. Whatever resolution they have, you can download.

Tom

[harpman54]

Here's a question regarding that CX-12 Jazz model: has Hohner addressed the issue of the spring tensioner holes at the back sides of the cover? I know we've discussed them breaking over time and the various repairs with ABS cement and such.....with a retooling of the entire cover I would think Hohner would have done something to resolve that issue.

bill

[rgn39]

The covers are interchangable so I doubt anything has changed re: the holes.

[Grizzly]

The covers are interchangable so I doubt anything has changed re: the holes.

They could have been reenforced without changing the function; but I doubt Hohner went that far.

Even though I've had newer covers break at that point, one from a drop and the other "just happened," the older models I own seem to have stronger springs that don't fit as well. It could have contributed to earlier failures, leading Hohner to lessen the tension and somehow smooth out the connecting faces. (Lot of good it did. )

But it's still the most fragile part of the design. I don't know what Hohner's policy about replacement is, or even if they have one.

Tom