CX 12 fan club

[Gnarly He Man]

Button noise can be diminished by not snapping the button--I tend to hold onto the button somewhat when I play.
Gary

[Grizzly]

Button noise can be diminished by not snapping the button--I tend to hold onto the button somewhat when I play.
Gary

I agree—but sometimes I get noise anyway, from my own enthusiasm. Slide modifications can help, but all I've done so far is tape one, and not on the CX 12 I play regularly.

Tom

[rgn39]

I believe most of the noise can be eliminated by cushioning the slide. Just out of curiousity  put a couple of small  pieces of cotton at two points on the comb where the slide contacts it and most of the noise dissappeared. Now Im looking for something more permanent. Obviously it has to be pretty thin but I think I can find something that will work.

[Grizzly]

Where did you put it, and what effect did it have on airtightness?

Tom

[rgn39]

The slide button makes contact on the floor ridges of the button hole. This is the area that I am working on. I dont think airtightness is affected at all as long as you stay within the movement limits which as near as I can figure gives you about a sixteenth of an inch to play with. There is some noise caused by the slide itself and I dont see any way to change that. Dont know if I can find something that will hold up for awhile. If not it wont be worth messing with.

[Grizzly]

If I remember, there's something called micro-pore tape. I wonder if that would be worth looking into?

Tom

[Grizzly]

There are already white rubber bumpers for the slide, a T shaped one for the return, and a cylinder attached to the inside of the button at the bottom of the spring. The T contacts the latch, and the cylinder contacts the X on the comb.

The noise comes from the spring, and the side play in the slide. I wonder if a flexible coat of dampening material, like silicone, would quiet the spring.

The side play in the slide can be taken care of by peening the edge of the slide in a few places; if that make the slice too tight, the metal that has been upset by the peening can be filed to fit.

Can anybody tell us whether this is also called jeweling?

Tom

[Grizzly]

I took a chance and peened the edge of the slide on my practice CX 12 Standard. ("Peened" may be the wrong word: I used a center punch [not the spring loaded kind!] and used it with a small mallet.) I upset metal near the edge of the slide to form several bumps along the edge. I back the slide up with a flat piece of steel. I filed the excess metal from the flat surface of the comb with a #6 file. With a little finagling, I got the side play down to a bare minimum. That took care of most of the noise.

If I twang the button on my Super 64, the spring "sings," just like it does on my CX 12. So I guess the next step would be to coat the spring in something flexible.

I'm Copying this over to Maintenance & Repair. It wasn't so risky to do this, as I have four other CX 12s to steal a slide from.

Tom

[Ziggy]

Can anybody tell us whether this is also called jeweling?
Tom

Here's the best explanation I could find:

 The pattern on the Spirit of St. Louis was made with an abrasive on the end of a rod or dowel, using a drill press and some kind of step-and-repeat fixture. The size of the dowel and the amount of overlap are determined experimentally, and it may take some practice to get it right (try it on a piece of scrap first). This pattern was popular in the 1920s and '30s for instrument panels and firewalls on luxury sports cars, and occasionally body panels or other parts. It may also be seen on some bank vault doors and old safes.

Many people call this process "engine turning", including most antique car enthusiasts. But if you ask a machinist about "engine turning" they may tell you about a completely different process (or not, depending on their background -- this can cause some controversy). Purists know the abrasive dowel pattern as "jeweling".

When I was a tool & die maker we did a lot of this when we built production machines to help break up the monotony. we would use a milling machine to do the indexing.
Ziggy

[Grizzly]

By your definition, Ziggy, how could jewelling, aka engine turning (mentioned several times across different Topics) possibly be advantageous to a slide?

Tom

[dddeon]

Posted on: Today at 08:20:14 AMPosted by: Grizzly 
Insert Quote
If I remember, there's something called micro-pore tape. I wonder if that would be worth looking into?

Tom

Micropore tape is a medical-grade adhesive tape. It is heavier-duty than Scotch Tape. It has small pores to allow skin to breathe (hence the term micropore). You should be able to buy some at the drugstore or a medical supply store.

[Ziggy]

By your definition, Ziggy, how could jewelling, aka engine turning (mentioned several times across different Topics) possibly be advantageous to a slide?

Tom

You said:

Can anybody tell us whether this is also called jeweling?

I gave you this explaination to show you what the term 'jewelling" means.
No, "jewelling" has no advantage to a slide. It is strictly decorative.
Z

[Grizzly]

There must be more than one definition, then. Hey, Joey?

Tom

[Grizzly]

This might more properly have its own Topic; but here goes:

CX 12 Comparison to Chromatix SCX 56—preliminary

(Other than the obvious big difference, the number of holes. We'll ignore that, other than Hohner doesn't make a 14 in this category. The two are at the extremes: Chrometta 14 and Meisterklasse.)

If it's your desire to have a CX 14, one choice is an SCX 56 from Suzuki. The mouthplate profile is similar, both have round tone holes.

My new Chromatix SCX 56 came today, and I've been giving it a bit of a workout. First impressions: buzzy windsavers, even the draw ones. Initially anyway, potential problems with intonation (octaves). Comfortable to cup and to play. Takes more effort than the CX 12. Tone doesn't have the depth of a CX 12. Airtight, maybe a little more so than my practice CX 12.

Is it a keeper? I think so. It gives me a 14 to play other than my Chrometta, and consider playing in public. But if the windsavers don't settle down, and the tuning needs touchup, those will be two of its minuses. The other is tone; but a change in cupping technique may alleviate that issue.

Later, I'll compare the tone to my Chrometta 14 (which, BTW, came with a bent slide and tuning so far out it didn't even sound good alone). Those issues have been corrected.

Tom

[rgn39]

Its pretty easy to switch from the CX to the SCX's mouthpiecewise, but I find my CX to be more airtight than them. I don't think I have ever played any notes, so far, lower than the 2 hole on a 12 holer. I like the larger harmonicas for the larger sound but the CX competes pretty well there too.

[Grizzly]

Its pretty easy to switch from the CX to the SCX's mouthpiecewise, but I find my CX to be more airtight than them. I don't think I have ever played any notes, so far, lower than the 2 hole on a 12 holer. I like the larger harmonicas for the larger sound but the CX competes pretty well there too.

Either my practice CX 12 leaks, or my Chromatix leaks less, but they're about equal. i don't have to struggle for breath on either. CX 12s are very competitive for volume with anything out there that I've tried.

Tom

[Grizzly]

CX 12 Comparison to Chromatix SCX 56 2nd installment

I compared the Chromatix to my Chrometta 14. No contest. The difference was much greater than the difference between the Chromatix and the CX 12.

The Chromatix is a serious instrument, substantial and well made. If I had to make a comparison of tone, the Chromatix seems more like a metal flute, and the CX 12 more like a wooden one. Mind, I'm not trying to make either one of them into a flute; they're harmonicas, even though I'm playing flute music on them. Despite claims to the contrary, the cover(s) resonate, and the metal ones have a "ring" to them that the plastic one doesn't. It's subtle, and I don't know if it projects to an audience, but I can feel it in my hands. I'm getting used to the differences.

Tom

[Grizzly]

CX 12 Comparison to Chromatix SCX 56 3rd installment

The slide got somewhat gritty, and the windsavers haven't calmed down. I took it apart for the first time, and tried to deal with these issues.

The windsavers, for some reason, won't kink when I place a needle crosswise underneath and push. The top layers are also set much further back than Hohner's. What's vibrating is the windsaver that is in play, so to speak; when I draw on A, it's the G windsaver that's not closing all the way with a soft breath, and vibrating against the reedplate. Playing louder eliminates the problem, but it is annoying.

I took apart the slide package to see whether it was just goop making it feel gritty. Nothing was obvious; but I sanded the surfaces with 600 grit, then 1200 grit paper (used and nearly warn out making flutes). Then I noticed the tone holes on the slide side of the mouthplate had really sharp edges. I went after them with my scraper, then sanded again. I put a little Vaseline on the end of the spring and on the edges of the slide, and reassembled.

This is so well built that I could tighten the screws down tight and not make the slide bind up. Gee, it's slick now!

I played through a few pieces, and will put it away without rinsing the slide, just to see what happens.

With this improvement, it's starting to feel closer to my CX 12s. Slightly different tone, but it seems to be getting louder the more I play it.

Tom

PS I just realized it's the top layer of the windsaver that's supposed to get kinked. No wonder it didn't work. However, they're so short that it may not have the desired effect. I did use the needle to try to take the curl out of the bottom layer. Funny, the top ones were much worse than the bottom ones. The inside ones seem to be okay.

T

[smojoe]

Jeweling a slide is different from engine turning. Jeweling means to totally work over a slide to remove ALL burrs, sharp spots,  excessive looseness, clicking and clacking, gritty feel, sluggish springs, stickiness. All it means is that you are spending an inordinate amount of effort...effort the manufacturer didn't DO..to make the slide smooth. Hence 'Jeweling'

I came up with this after a discussion with a jeweler over the jewels that are in 17 jewel and 21 jewel watches. It turns out that the jewels that are in a watch aren't jewels at all. BUT, they are garnet glass and they cost MORE to make than if real rubies were used. PLUS, the glass has no flaws and is more likely not to fracture. Hence, they qualify as 'Jewels'.

Ergo. unusual extra work on a slide qualifies as 'Jeweling'.

scraping the holes in the slide is usually beneficial, and a part of the jeweling process

smokey-joe

[rgn39]

Tom 
 
Sounds kind of like a replay of what I went through with my SCX's. They seem to require a bit of breaking in. I had much less of a problem with the 64 though. As you know I removed a bunch of windsavers from the 56. I did not do that with the 64. I think I have learned my lesson about that. I was under the impression that replacing windsavers was a piece of cake but I have not found that to be the case. It takes a bit of skill to replace a windaver properly, and some windsavers are much better than others, imho. I still have not had one sticking windsaver on my CX12, knock on wood.

[Grizzly]

Jeweling a slide is different from engine turning. Jeweling means to totally work over a slide to remove ALL burrs, sharp spots,  excessive looseness, clicking and clacking, gritty feel, sluggish springs, stickiness. All it means is that you are spending an inordinate amount of effort...effort the manufacturer didn't DO..to make the slide smooth. Hence 'Jeweling'
8<
Ergo. unusual extra work on a slide qualifies as 'Jeweling'.

scraping the holes in the slide is usually beneficial, and a part of the jeweling process

smokey-joe

Thanks for that, Joey. I guess putting bumps along the edges is included in "jewelling." It really helped on the CX 12 I did it to. I'm finding some need it, some don't. It depends on the mold, I guess, or how much the channel is worn. The rest of the slide "package" is pretty smooth to begin with.

Tom

[smojoe]

Tom, the problems I have with edge dimpling is that I would be afraid of the 'saw' factor. I mean, since the chassis is made of Delrin or some other sort of plastic, I would be afraid of causing more wear in that critical area. Same goes for tapeing the slide. Yes, I realize that the tape is much softer than the plastic, but I would think that any friction could cause concern.

No, unfortunatey, I don't care for plastics for certain applications. For the front end modesty panel on a car, plastic is fine, because you can unbolt it and replace it with a new panel. Whereas metal must be forced away from the frame. No, I prefer a metal slide mechanism, and while I WILL allow as how the CX has some wonderful attributes, I prefer metal.

Actually, I could like (and DO) the CX very much, as far as tone and action is concerned. The ONLY reason I don't use one is the slide noise. I am disconcerted by the 'Clickety-Klack' tappet brothers sound. Now one coud install a wee bit of foam into a small recess that one cuts into the chassis, but you would have to be careful and then, I'm not sure that this wouldn't cause strain on the 'Hook' shaped protrusion on the slide that secures the slide in place.

As used as I am to making parts out of nothing at all, I think trying to cut this button & hook piece from a chunk of raw plastic would be challenging.

smo-joe

[rgn39]

I have been trying to come up with a way to adapt an external spring to the CX and that is proving to be quite a challenge, too, but I think it is doable. I have a spare Suzuki 14 hole slide which is a pretty good fit in the Hohner slot and could be modified  a bit and the spring could fit into the slot on the end. Attaching it to the shell is the real problem but it might possibly be fastened to the comb retainer and go off and on with it.

[Grizzly]

For side play, the slide on my Gold is fine. In fact, the slide I taped, which lives in another Cx 12, makes the tolerances too close when I transfer it to the Gold.

Others of my CX 12s vary in side play. Dimpling really quiets them down, at least on the one I've done. It could "saw" the channel; but I sanded the dimples smooth with 1200 grit paper, and have had it apart looking for sawdust. So far, so good.

Tape is softer than the metal it's taped to, and I don't detect any inherent grit to it that might wear the channel.

I suppose eventually, any slide, tweaked or not, is going to wear against a non-metal surface like ABS plastic. But the cover is replaceable, for less than the cost of a new harmonica.

Truth is, CX 12s are pretty airtight without modification. If getting the clack out of the sideplay is important, I suggest dimpling. Slides are replaceable, too. I've tried snapping the slides on other harmonicas, and I can get them to clang and clap, too.

Tom

[toddo]

Hey Tom,
If you figure out what's causing the windsavers on the Chromatix to buzz, let me know. I have the same problem on my SC-56. From your description it sounds like the two have the same windsavers. I've got another SC-56 on the way. I really like it and found another for an incredibly low price in Canada. I'll let you know if it has buzz problems too.

[Grizzly]

Hey Tom,
If you figure out what's causing the windsavers on the Chromatix to buzz, let me know. I have the same problem on my SC-56. From your description it sounds like the two have the same windsavers. I've got another SC-56 on the way. I really like it and found another for an incredibly low price in Canada. I'll let you know if it has buzz problems too.

I mentioned it earlier in Reply #107. It's not the windsaver of the note being sounded, it's the other one in the same chamber. If it doesn't close all the way, it vibrates against the reedplate. I was trying it kink the windsaver, then realized afterwards I was trying to kink the wrong layer (the bottom). I haven't gone back in to try to kink the top layer, which is what I should have done in the first place. Trouble is, the top layer is set so far back from the leading edge of the bottom layer that I'm not sure it will do any good. One solution would be to replace them with Hohner windsavers, but that's a big project. So far, I think it's only the outside windsavers that are a problem, and really only the one in the 7th hole when playing A. Take the covers off and look in a mirror when you're playing. You'll see the saver bouncing off of the plate when you play softly.

Tom

[Gnarly He Man]

My experience is that windsavers rattle.
When I was first starting, I thought it was my fault, and that there was nothing I could do about it.
After a handful of years playing chrom, I have come to accept that maintainance and tweaking are a part of playing this instrument.
I just got done fixing a rattling note (draw F, it would be hole 2 except it's that Meisterklasse arrangement of tones, so it's draw 4 on a HFC 270) by removing and replacing the windsaver so that the tip extends farther past the hole. Problem solved!
The beauty of these Mylar/Micropore self stick valves is that they can be "r and r"ed many times.
How many? I dunno . . . but I did just send Bill Romel a check for another hundred or so.
At $.50 apiece, I can afford to swap out offending valves without fear.
Makes working on these 260s much easier--if I screw up a valve while filing, no worries!
Gary
PS On topic post: I use them on my CX-12, which I like better than 270s, even Vern's adaptation.
G

[Eugene Ryan]

I have been trying to come up with a way to adapt an external spring to the CX and that is proving to be quite a challenge, too, but I think it is doable. Smiley I have a spare Suzuki 14 hole slide which is a pretty good fit in the Hohner slot and could be modified  a bit and the spring could fit into the slot on the end. Attaching it to the shell is the real problem but it might possibly be fastened to the comb retainer and go off and on with it.

Hey Ron,

If you get anywhere with this, can you post your findings please?  I'd like to do the same at some point, use a CX12 comb and plates with SCX mouthpiece and slide.  Approaching the same problem another way, I could mount the plates on the SCX comb, with holes in different locations - that will be my first pursuit.

Thanks,
Eugene

[Ray J]

Can I join?

I've got this -







But really its this



My starter Chrom'

I am curiouse, can anyone tell me if there is a difference?

Ray

[John Broecker]

Hello, Ray J.

I have a Wuxi-Suzuki WH-12 slide chromatic. I like it a lot. Maybe we should start a "Wuxi" fan club.

I also have a Hohner CX-12 gold-plated harmonica.

Three of the four major parts shown in your photo are compatible on the CX-12 and WH-12, but not the slider.

The last time I checked, the Wuxi was sold for about 1/3rd the price of a Hohner.

There are differences in quality of materials and workmanship.

The Hohner CX-12 has better materials and workmanship, in my opinion.

The Wuxi has all the same parts as the Hohner (except slider), and to my ears, the Wuxi sounds as good as the Hohner. But the reeds and windsaver valves are not as durable on the Wuxi. I imagine that the Wuxi will need transplants or re-tuning before the Hohner.

I use them equally in practice and performance, but I prefer the CX-12.

John Broecker