Author Topic: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .  (Read 6631 times)

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Maynard

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Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« on: November 12, 2019, 03:27:49 PM »
I wanted to get an easttop 12 .. Scotty ive heard u speak of your favorite key maybe A . Im an ear player so im thinking Scotty can help with this one .

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2019, 03:47:17 PM »
A is good because it makes the sharp keys (D, A, E) easier to play.

SaxonyFan

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2019, 07:45:17 PM »
A is good because it makes the sharp keys (D, A, E) easier to play.

Not if your goal is improvisation.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 11:04:40 PM by SaxonyFan »

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2019, 08:07:11 PM »
At this point, my goal is to play fewer clams.
The second harp (in my case, an Orchestra tuned bebop in D) takes me there.
More than one way to skin a cat.

Offline nadlerus

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2019, 12:25:51 PM »
Except for special situations, a competent player, with a working knowledge of basic scales, will always advance himself with a single C chromatic.
Its easier to change the key of the tune, than of the harmonica. You will improve your harmonica abilities as you improve your musicianship.
Neil Adler
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dougharps

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 01:01:09 PM »
As has been noted many times previously, the choice of using chromatic harmonicas based on major scales other than C is an individual choice based on individual circumstances, musical goals and aspirations.

Some players choose to play only whole tone tuned chromatic harmonicas. Some choose diminished tuned instruments. Some choose bebop tuned instruments.

Some choose chromatic harmonicas tuned to different key centers.

The advantage of using chromatic harmonicas in different key centers is that if you have learned to improvise and play by ear in a few keys on a C centered instrument, you can greatly expand the keys available to you with the purchase of an instrument with a different key center, such as an A chromatic. As Gnarly noted, keys favored by guitarists can be more easily accessed with an A instrument. Fans of horn based flat key music might benefit from using a Bb centered instrument. You can use chromatics tuned to different key centers in order to play competently and improvise in keys that would otherwise require years of study to master to the level of public performance.  If you want to make music in more difficult key scales when using a C instrument, chromatics with different key centers can help.

Disadvantages in the use of keyed chromatics are that such use may build a dependency and take away your motivation to expand your skills and learn to play in all keys. The "easy path" of chromatics in different key centers will likely hamper your development toward reaching your peak skill level playing chromatic harmonica. Additionally, some music requires shifting through different keys. Constantly swapping chromatic instruments in different keys to follow the musical changes would not be viable.

If you read music, when using keyed chromatics you would either need to learn to transpose from sheet music on the fly or obtain different sheet music for your transposing instrument, written for the specific key of your instrument. It would be much preferable to learn to read music and play a C (or Bb?) chromatic in all keys than to constantly transpose or obtain specialized sheet music.

SO...

If you seek to play songs in many different keys at a reasonable performance level in a short time, then chromatics tuned to different key centers may help you be able to do this much more quickly than learning all the scales on one key of instrument.

If you want to become a truly skilled chromatic player who can use one instrument for playing in all keys, in the same manner an orchestral instrument would be played in all keys, then stay with a C based chromatic or perhaps a Bb.


Doug S.

SaxonyFan

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 04:49:29 PM »
Pick a single chromatic pitch layout and learn to play it regardless of key. In the long term there are no benefits to doing otherwise.

Offline Danny G

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2019, 05:18:54 PM »
Tools are created to make work easier.
Instruments are nothing more than tools for producing music.
You'll never know if keyed instruments are the right tool for you unless you do more than think about getting one.

Maynard

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 06:34:23 PM »
Sounds like i need an A and a Bb

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2019, 06:40:05 PM »
Sounds like i need an A and a Bb
I retuned a third chromatic to Bb and have used it but not much.
All three are Orchestra Bebop, in Bb C and D.
I agree that it’s good to practice on one tuning, but this works for me—onstage, for money.
So that is one measure of success.
Mostly the C—

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2019, 09:58:38 PM »
Sounds like i need an A and a Bb

Nope, just the A (a B flat comes free with an A) ;D

dougharps

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2019, 12:32:52 AM »
My "long term" is much shorter now than it was when I put down chromatic after 10 years of youthful exploration and picked up diatonic in the early 1970s in order to play the music that interested me at that time. If, in the '90s when I resumed chromatic after a two decade hiatus, I had waited for "the long term" when I could fluidly improvise in all keys on a C chromatic before playing out, I would have had to decline playing chromatic harmonica on quite a few songs at paid gigs and would not have been accepted into one band because I didn't have the chops on one instrument to play all the songs in the designated keys. With keyed chromatics, I could...

If I had focused primarily on building chromatic skills in all keys after resuming in the '90s I would have had to set aside my diatonics to immerse myself in improving chromatic playing skills. I could not have spent time improving my diatonic playing or later worked on vocals.  It would have been a different life path, one I did not take.

For me, the use of different key centered chromatics since the '90s has allowed me to competently improvise by ear using chromatic harmonica in paid performances of music I enjoy. Despite using different keyed instruments, I do use the button quite a bit for notes I need making music. 

I had a 38 year career in social services (not music), and while we were raising our kids and I was working, my harmonica performance efforts waned and waxed over those years.

Since gradually resuming chromatic harmonica in the 1990s did I let the shortcut of keyed chromatics detour me from learning all the scales on a C? Yes... that is why I mentioned that possibility in my post above.

Has the use of different key centered chromatics adversely impacted my musical efforts using chromatic harmonicas to make the music I enjoy? Not one bit...

I would rather create music competently in a difficult key with a keyed chromatic than offer a poor performance trying to prove I can play awkward keys on a C chromatic.

I am not seeking to become a classical or jazz chromatic professional or even a skilled amateur in all keys.

I enjoy using chromatic and diatonic harmonicas to make music I enjoy. While I have some rudimentary reading skills I only consult sheet music on rare occasions for reference, as I primarily play by ear.

I use the chromatic harmonica to supplement the diatonics I use in performing the music I enjoy. Many audience members have asked about chromatic harmonica after seeing me use one in performance. While I occasionally use the instruments in blues chromatic fashion "3rd position" I do play music on it in other ways, too.

Playing folk, roots, and Americana music on chromatic at gigs and jams interests people in the instrument. While answering questions I usually bring up Toots, Stevie Wonder, and Robert Bonfiglio in addition to the blues chromatic players they know.

Do I regret having not set aside diatonic harmonica and singing in order to focus on mastering all the scales on a C chromatic? No... I am enjoying myself a lot making music using diatonic, chromatic, and singing since my retirement.

As I said above, "... the choice of using chromatic harmonicas based on major scales other than C is an individual choice based on individual circumstances, musical goals and aspirations."

Using chromatics with different key centers fits my individual circumstances, musical goals and aspirations.

I reject any of the blanket prescriptive criticisms that are so readily offered by some who see only one way to approach the instrument.

The chromatic harmonica is a tool, as Danny G noted above, and I will use those tools as I please.

I do not criticize those who pursue the goal of playing and improvising in all keys on one instrument, whether they choose to use solo tuning or an alternative note layout. I agree that being able to play in all keys on one instrument is a more traditional and valid musical approach. When competence is finally achieved it is far more flexible than switching instruments. When speaking to interested persons I often suggest that to really use chromatic harmonica fully you have to learn to play all keys on it.

I greatly enjoy hearing skilled players use one C chromatic to make beautiful music.

How we choose to express our musical selves and the instrument(s) through which we express our music is a personal choice, and I respect the efforts of all who seek to make music for their own or other's enjoyment.

At this stage of my life I am not centering my musical efforts on playing it all on a C chromatic. I am having too much fun following my own path.


Doug S.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 01:29:17 AM by dougharps »

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2019, 01:03:40 AM »
Pick a single chromatic pitch layout and learn to play it regardless of key. In the long term there are no benefits to doing otherwise.
I like the tuning I chose, and it works well for me.
But certain keys don't work as well, so when I have to, I use a keyed chromatic.

Check the archives, I resisted the use of keyed chromatics, but have found that when I want to play rock and roll in A, I am much more likely to enjoy myself and produce what I recognize to be an acceptable performance if I use the harp with two sharps.
It actually only has one, since the blow chord is a D7. But there's a C# too.
E is played like Dm and there are a bunch of blues players who only play third position on a chrom, so that can be good--certainly better than standard solo tuned C. E isn't much fun .  .  . for me. I can work thru it, if a tune goes to that key for a section--but I don't want to live there.

As to augmented tuning, which is the tuning you chose, there are no enharmonics, so you can't chip the note at all. That's a standard part of the chromatic sound. I can't live there either. But I think your stance on the issue (keyed chromatics) is in line with your choice of tuning--one place for every note.

Diatonics are transposing instruments, and I use a few different tunings too, so I have a different perspective than you.

It's funny how we are all so different, and yet so alike.


Offline Keith

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2019, 04:42:29 AM »
I'm a 'C' player mainly, usually orchestra or tenor, but have regular as well........I had the opportunity to try a different key, an 'E', & really enjoy its low tones, but I do play it as if it were a 'C', kind of like a tenor. I like the low tones on any chrom, & if a different key seems to be the way to your personal enjoyment, go for it. :)

(I can't play by ear, wish I could, but I need tab or the notes.)

Offline smojoe

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2019, 10:40:48 AM »
WOW Dougharps. You just told 'my' story. Only difference? For me it was 3 decades of time off.
smo-joe

Offline Scotty

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2019, 11:08:33 AM »
Maynard: I personally LOVE a key of A chromatic. I don't love the key of C for many of the songs I play since I find the tone lacking somehow to my ear.
I am a purely ear player so that's important to me. The A gives me everything I need - except for the fact that it doesn't come in a 16 length, unfortunately. Tone is everything. I also like a Bb chromatic for other reasons. While I agree with Age to a point, I like a Bb because I can do other things with it I can't achieve on the A or C. But don't go by me, I don't know 'who lives in which apartment' (Smokey's go-to about learning where the notes 'live'), although I can read music a bit when I play piano, I can't connect the dots to the chromatic for some strange reason (a mental block I guess?). So - I just play, and I 'do' play a C (especially a Super 64) as well, but the CX-12 in A is literally the perfect fit for me. IF it came in a 16 it would fit even better imho.

I don't know if this works for others. This is what works for my ears and my brain. Maybe if I hadn't quit at 15 and stayed away for 30+ years, I might
have continued playing 'only on a C' - who knows? Fwiw, I'm glad to have discovered the A because I absolutely LOVE its sound--and get compliments
all the time from those who hear me play. I don't think it's my tone over that of the instrument, since I don't believe I sound half as good on a key of C chromatic.

Have to agree with Danny - it's a tool -use the right one for you, and I've made the same point before as well. These instruments are being made by the manufacturers - for what purpose if not for us to play them? When others tell you that everything should be played on a C, you might remind them that even the 'greats' like Larry Adler and Jerry Murad had 16-hole Bb's and probably A's made for them 'privately' by Hohner which no one knew they'd use 'when necessary'. So much of the hype about playing everything on a key of C is based on myth from people who didn't know these great players were using other keys, and no one should have to follow that ideal if they don't want to. IF one chooses to set that as a goal, more power to them, but I know it isn't the aim of most of us--especially those who don't begin playing well into midlife or even older.

Do what fits you, not anyone else. :)

scotty

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2019, 11:16:59 AM »
Pick a single chromatic pitch layout and learn to play it regardless of key. In the long term there are no benefits to doing otherwise.
I like the tuning I chose, and it works well for me.
But certain keys don't work as well, so when I have to, I use a keyed chromatic.

Check the archives, I resisted the use of keyed chromatics, but have found that when I want to play rock and roll in A, I am much more likely to enjoy myself and produce what I recognize to be an acceptable performance if I use the harp with two sharps.
It actually only has one, since the blow chord is a D7. But there's a C# too.
E is played like Dm and there are a bunch of blues players who only play third position on a chrom, so that can be good--certainly better than standard solo tuned C. E isn't much fun .  .  . for me. I can work thru it, if a tune goes to that key for a section--but I don't want to live there.

As to augmented tuning, which is the tuning you chose, there are no enharmonics, so you can't chip the note at all. That's a standard part of the chromatic sound. I can't live there either. But I think your stance on the issue (keyed chromatics) is in line with your choice of tuning--one place for every note.

Diatonics are transposing instruments, and I use a few different tunings too, so I have a different perspective than you.

It's funny how we are all so different, and yet so alike.

Hey Gary --just when was it that you came around to playing a Key of A chromatic? :)  Isn't it a fantastic-sounding chrom?
Classic Rock: Bob Seger, the Eagles, Journey - even a Clapton song or two - fall right into my use of this instrument.

scotty

Offline wolfman

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2019, 11:26:10 AM »
WOW is right and you did it Your Way.

  Roman

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2019, 11:34:01 AM »
There's absolutely NOTHING I would change in Doug's post. Now that is real truth. He's just far more talented than I'll ever be.

scotty

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2019, 02:20:42 PM »
Scotty sed:
"I personally LOVE a key of A chromatic."

I gotta agree with Scotty here. Not even sure why, but I love the sound of an A.  ;D

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2019, 04:12:06 PM »

Hey Gary --just when was it that you came around to playing a Key of A chromatic? :)  Isn't it a fantastic-sounding chrom?
Classic Rock: Bob Seger, the Eagles, Journey - even a Clapton song or two - fall right into my use of this instrument.

scotty

It's been several years, but I didn't start bringing it to gigs--I already have too much stuff to set up!
But I have gotten better at using it (like SaxonyFan, I believe in training your ear so that playing becomes more intuitive), so it's getting used more.
Bear in mind that most of my playing onstage employs a guitar. But harmonica is a great melody instrument . . .

Offline beads

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2019, 12:02:13 PM »
There's absolutely NOTHING I would change in Doug's post. Now that is real truth. He's just far more talented than I'll ever be.

scotty

I also agree with Doug's post. And I'm also not as talented!  :)
Onze-Lieve-Vrouw van Troost Bid voor ons.

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2019, 03:01:29 PM »
More than talent, Doug's superpower is affability.
I am nothing but trouble.

Maynard

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2019, 06:05:03 PM »
I see there are two easttop A harps available. The black or the perfomer
. The difference in price is 50 aus . Anyone know which harp is better. Also are reeds interchangeable with the brass comb?

SaxonyFan

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2019, 08:12:51 PM »
While everyone may have different music goals those goals are bound to change as one gains confidence. Personally I don’t know any musician whose goals have not changed a dozen times. Every musician that I have ever cared to play with eventually learned that, with respect to technique, their goal is to make technique (getting around on the instrument) automatic. That is why I recommend to new players that they make a well informed choice of the pitch layout of their first chrom and why they play only one pitch layout. I see little good coming from limiting your potential to achieve your future goals because of past goals.

dougharps

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2019, 07:25:48 PM »
Maynard, if you decide to try a different keyed chromatic harmonica, such as the A EastTop you have mentioned, it may help at first to play a major scale starting on blow 1 or blow 5 before playing a song. This will help orient your ear to the instrument's pitch.

You can still use sheet music or tab as before, but you will be playing 3 semitones lower than on a C instrument.

Keyed chromatics are similar to using a guitar capo in that the patterns of the note intervals still work the same when you play, but the notes you play are at different pitches. The different key of the instrument transposes.


Doug S.

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2019, 01:38:45 AM »
You can still use sheet music or tab as before, but you will be playing 3 semitones lower than on a C instrument.
That's one of the reasons Scotty (among others) like a harp in the key of A--you can get the notes below Middle C.
Granted, only three notes . . .

Offline Keith

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2019, 04:43:17 AM »
......& why I prefer an orchestra tuned C, there are several tunes that go down below C4/middle C, some use B, some Bb, some A & some use the G, having them available allows to play them in the right octave.

dougharps

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2019, 12:33:54 PM »
My understanding was that Scotty just enjoyed the mellower tone and range of notes on the A as opposed to the C chromatic.

I thought that she played the same songs with the same breath/slide patterns as she would on a C, but on a lower pitched A instrument. So she is playing songs lower, 3 half steps lower than the C, thus transposing the music.

This works fine when you play alone. When you just play tunes by yourself you can enjoy the mellower tones of an A instrument and can play it as though it were a C instrument. The note intervals are the same in the same places. The actual note pitches are different.

When you play with others you have to figure out how to play in the key of the music others are playing. You can go  back to a C instrument or adjust your playing to the new key of the instrument.

Joe Leone has a chart explaining the key position relationships when you use different keyed instruments, based on a C instrument.

I just use the circle of fifths to figure it out and think numerical "positions" as opposed to keys played on a C instrument.

For example, if you wanted to play music on an A chromatic in the actual key of C on you would use the same breath and slide patterns as though you were playing a C instrument in the key of Eb.

If you are into reading music from a Real Book, but prefer a mellower tone than the C, with a range one whole tone lower than a C, a Bb chromatic is tuned one step lower than a C. You can buy Real Books for Bb instruments. I don't think that Real Books are available for the Key of A instruments.

It is a matter of choice and what and how you want to play.

I agree with Scotty about the sound of a 12 hole A chromatic (or G!) being mellower than a 12 hole C chromatic that gets so squeaky at the high end.

Doug S.

Offline Scotty

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Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2019, 12:10:07 AM »
Doug: couple of things. I don't focus at all on the difference between a C and A (insofar as it has 3 notes below middle C, that is). You're right in that I
simply prefer how much more mellow and 'tone-ful' a key of A chromatic is, BUT I do play with others: at this most recent harmonica gathering - a guitarist who fit his playing to my chrom --(I've met other guitarists who are happy to hear that I'm playing an A)...and when I do want to play with others who're playing on C's, I switch to fit them - and other musicians. It's easy enough. I don't play the A as if it was a C: frankly don't play the same songs on both instruments although I know that's what people think it's how I play, but not so. I can do things on the A now I can't achieve on a C - and love the sound a whole lot better, so I choose songs which fit the A specifically...but I also 'don't think about' what I'm doing, letting whatever's going on in my brain guide me.

 Likewise with the Bb, EB and a couple of the other keys I play around with now and then (love playing sax music on those) but these are primarily the ones I enjoy the most. Likely due mostly to the music I prefer to play along with which fits this chromatic so well (?) smooth jazz and R&B --are why I originally began messing with different keys. Before that I mostly played a G with button almost always held in (and later a Super 64), so maybe that's why I gravitated to the A? ...but now it's my go-to, and by comparison, regular C's just sound a bit flat and boring to my ears for so many of my tunes. As you noted, the high notes on an A still sound sweet, although when I finally get an A in a 16-hole I guess I'll find out if it still sounds 'as good' for the full 4 octaves. ;)

I've no idea why my brain is wired differently than other players', but it is and I'm not fazed by or remotely questioning of it when I get so much pleasure from playing these instruments I so enjoy, as I know you do too. :) I'm simply glad they're being made by the Harmonica manufacturers for people like me and you, although we have different reasons for and approaches and you are an equally fantastic diatonic player--and so much a pro, while I'm completely content being an amateur. It's still very nice to know that I'm not the only harmonica player here who thoroughly enjoys these other-keyed instruments. Obviously a great many other outside people play them, or they wouldn't still be manufactured.

It's ALL about the tone for me...I guess is the bottom line.

scotty