Thinking of getting a different keyed harp .

[RichChrome]

I agree with most of what has been shared on this thread, many of us need to make our playing a little easier and if buying harps in different key does that then more power to us. I have been reading Scotty's comments for the past couple of years and what she advocates convinced me to buy an A chrome, for two reasons, played in it's mother key A it has great tone, secondly the only sharp key I play in is G and then not very often, but I can play pretty well in that key on a C harp. I have some guitar playing friends who play pretty well everything in the sharp keys, A, D, and E the A harp opens those doors for me, it also gives me Bb which I play in a lot. I do have a harp in Bb and this gives me the ability to play well in Eb. I'm too old to learn every key on a C harp, coupled with the fact that I play 99% of the music I like in the flat keys. So I am a big supporter of buying the right harp in the appropriate key in order to play well, rather than play poorly on a harp where you're not comfortable in that key. Mind you it would be great to be able to play in any key on a C chrome.

[SaxonyFan]

I agree with most of what has been shared on this thread, many of us need to make our playing a little easier and if buying harps in different key does that then more power to us. I have been reading Scotty's comments for the past couple of years and what she advocates convinced me to buy an A chrome, for two reasons, played in it's mother key A it has great tone, secondly the only sharp key I play in is G and then not very often, but I can play pretty well in that key on a C harp. I have some guitar playing friends who play pretty well everything in the sharp keys, A, D, and E the A harp opens those doors for me, it also gives me Bb which I play in a lot. I do have a harp in Bb and this gives me the ability to play well in Eb. I'm too old to learn every key on a C harp, coupled with the fact that I play 99% of the music I like in the flat keys. So I am a big supporter of buying the right harp in the appropriate key in order to play well, rather than play poorly on a harp where you're not comfortable in that key. Mind you it would be great to be able to play in any key on a C chrome.

You don’t need my or anyone’s permission to purchase whatever harp you want.

My recommendation to choose one’s pitch layout wisely and to stick to one pitch layout are intended for those with serious long term goals.

[dougharps]

@SaxonyFan

It is clear that you personally disapprove of the approach of using different keyed chromatic instruments as a shortcut to better performances in a shorter time frame. This theme runs throughout your posts on this thread, "Re: Thinking of getting a different keyed harp".

Pick a single chromatic pitch layout and learn to play it regardless of key. In the long term there are no benefits to doing otherwise.

and

While everyone may have different music goals those goals are bound to change as one gains confidence. Personally I don’t know any musician whose goals have not changed a dozen times. Every musician that I have ever cared to play with eventually learned that, with respect to technique, their goal is to make technique (getting around on the instrument) automatic. That is why I recommend to new players that they make a well informed choice of the pitch layout of their first chrom and why they play only one pitch layout. I see little good coming from limiting your potential to achieve your future goals because of past goals.

and

My recommendation to choose one’s pitch layout wisely and to stick to one pitch layout are intended for those with serious long term goals.

You advocate for playing a single chromatic harmonica layout, playing only one specific pitch layout for all songs in order to be able to improvise and to make it  automatic to get around on one instrument.

You don't state it explicitly, but you imply that "getting around on the instrument" must be for all keys on only one instrument.

That is OK. We all get to make our own personal choices about our music and our goals.

I see both the benefits and shortcomings of the keyed chromatic approach I use. I am able to get around on the instrument on automatic adequately to improvise in the music I perform. However, I do change instruments sometimes to optimize my performance of music in different keys. Usually I could play any given song on more than one key of chromatic harmonica. It is only when the music cycles through numerous keys in one song that my approach shows its inherent limitations.

Throughout your posts there is reference to goals, specifically "serious long term goals". 

What do you consider to be "serious long term" musical goals with respect to chromatic harmonica?

How do you differentiate serious vs. not so serious goals with regard to harmonica performance?

Is it the genre or complexity of the music?

Is having the goal of professional orchestral performance on harmonica the measure?

Is it a requirement to read from sheet music?

Must one be able to play a song in every key on the same instrument in order to have serious long term goals? Why?

Is skilled jazz chromatic harmonica performance the measure?

Is the performance of music that shifts between many keys in one piece the requirement of having "serious long term goals"?

Is the goal of making a living as a professional chromatic harmonica player the measure?

It seems to be an arbitrary requirement that one must use just one key of chromatic to play all music in order to be in pursuit of "serious long term goals".

I believe that one can make good music using different keys of chromatic harmonicas.

To me, a serious long term goal is to make good music using whatever tools you choose.


Doug S.

[SaxonyFan]

Doug

I would say that a serious musician is one whose goal is to master the use all 12 pitches in any octave for their unique musical qualities in any key. In other words they strive to use the entire musical palette available to them. To do so they must master using all 12 pitches in a large variety of sequences. Since one will only be playing one instrument at a time (I presume) that means that one must master doing this on a single instrument. You could try to master it on different keyed instruments if you like but what would be the point of doing so when you can do it on one? The use of multiple different “keyed” instruments will simply not facilitate getting to the goal of serious musicianship.

Simple as that.

[dougharps]

Thank you for clarifying your definition.

It is what I had gathered from your posts.


Doug S.

[Keith]

I sometimes like to play a different key of harmonica, whilst playing as if it were a 'C', to create a different mood feeling to a tune, mainly on diatonic, but it works on chromatic too, as I found out when I bought a key of 'E', a really deep sounding chrom.

I'm in it for my own pleasure, so I just go with what sounds good to me, so I say go get another key, & enjoy your playing, we don't all aspire to be professional musicians.

[dougharps]

I am OK with not being considered a "serious musician" by those standards. I am too busy making music and enjoying myself.

 

I do the best I can, any way I can, to make music I enjoy on chromatic and diatonic harmonicas, primarily to accompany singers and take occasional solos. Generally my efforts seem to be appreciated by the listening public and other musicians and vocalists (some quite serious in their own pursuits) with whom I play or who are in the audience.

In my opinion, if you play solo tuned chromatic and want to try a different keyed instrument, go for it! You will likely enjoy the different sound and musical opportunities in solo tuned chromatic harmonics tuned to keys other than C. Relative pitch will let you switch instruments easily, as the interval patterns are the same, just based on a different pitch.

Having perfect pitch may cause you trouble in switching, or not...

If you are a beginner and don't have the solo tuned chromatic pitch interval patterns yet ingrained in your musical mind, or you are just flexible in learning alternate tuning schemes, then you may find trying a symmetrical tuning without tuning bias to be of interest.

NOTE:
I play with guitar players of varying ability, quite a few being highly skilled "serious musicians" who are capable of "using all 12 pitches in a large variety of sequences".

However, despite having the skills to play anything in any key, at times they will still choose to use a capo so that they can play certain songs in a certain way.


I view different keyed chromatics as my equivalent to a harmonica "capo".     


Doug S.

[AimlessWanderer]

I'm in it for my own pleasure, so I just go with what sounds good to me, so I say go get another key, & enjoy your playing, we don't all aspire to be professional musicians.

I heartily agree with this.

[AimlessWanderer]

I view different keyed chromatics as my equivalent to a harmonica "capo".     

Nice analogy

[SlideMeister]

Actually, it's a perfect analogy. 
(just ask anyone who plays guitar AND harmonica)

[SaxonyFan]

I view different keyed chromatics as my equivalent to a harmonica "capo".     

Doug S.

I have played guitar for 40 years (jazz, rock, bluegrass). Using a capo isn’t like using a different “keyed” harmonica at all. When using a capo all the pitches are still obtained at the same frets. The only thing that changes when using a capo is which of those are pitches have the “open string” sound.

[SlideMeister]

I've played the guitar for fifty-nine years and IMO, It is if you're used to playing everything in the first four frets, and, if you think about it, that's the harmonica equivalent of playing everything in the tonic key. (I know; cuz I did that with my Chromatics for fifty years!  )

[SlideMeister]

Then we disagree! Nothin' wrong with that!

[Chromatonic]

Dougharp and Saxony Fan make clear, salient points. Although I got my first harmonica about 60 years ago, I won't pretend to have the expertise or experience of some of those here. With a button-chromatic harmonica, my experience is actually pretty limited. That said, I consider myself a "semi-pro". I play Jazz, Blues, Country, Bluegrass, etc. - for money. I make (like most 'regional' musicians) TENS of dollars at a time. I think I'm a pretty 'serious' player, and I intend to continue playing as long as I have a breath.

I almost agree with Saxony Fan in my approach. I made a decision to stick with one tuning scheme (as opposed to one pitch layout). My "relative pitch" gives me no problem in the context of a tune. The six keys (or 'positions') I can play now leave me with a number of options while using keyed harmonicas. If the song is Major, minor, modal, folk, jazz, or bluesy - in fact most of the music I encounter that pleases my ear - I have options. That doesn't mean I'm not studying, working on playing in more keys (or 'positions') on my solo-tuned instruments. I definitely am. But I have access to more than 12 keys NOW (if you include Majors, minors, etc.), thanks to playing keyed harmonicas. Don't many other musicians - horn players, guitar players, accordion players do some version of the same?

I feel a strategy that includes more options for the player is better than one which limits options.

Thanks for the stimulating thread, y'all.

[Scotty]

I am OK with not being considered a "serious musician" by those standards. I am too busy making music and enjoying myself.

 

I do the best I can, any way I can, to make music I enjoy on chromatic and diatonic harmonicas, primarily to accompany singers and take occasional solos. Generally my efforts seem to be appreciated by the listening public and other musicians and vocalists (some quite serious in their own pursuits) with whom I play or who are in the audience.

In my opinion, if you play solo tuned chromatic and want to try a different keyed instrument, go for it! You will likely enjoy the different sound and musical opportunities in solo tuned chromatic harmonics tuned to keys other than C. Relative pitch will let you switch instruments easily, as the interval patterns are the same, just based on a different pitch.

Having perfect pitch may cause you trouble in switching, or not...

If you are a beginner and don't have the solo tuned chromatic pitch interval patterns yet ingrained in your musical mind, or you are just flexible in learning alternate tuning schemes, then you may find trying a symmetrical tuning without tuning bias to be of interest.

NOTE:
I play with guitar players of varying ability, quite a few being highly skilled "serious musicians" who are capable of "using all 12 pitches in a large variety of sequences".

However, despite having the skills to play anything in any key, at times they will still choose to use a capo so that they can play certain songs in a certain way.


I view different keyed chromatics as my equivalent to a harmonica "capo".     


Doug S.

Ok! You're my hero if I haven't emphasized this enough before. No one has made the points about these chromatics better. While I haven't talked about it too much, I've also played with other guitarists and pianists who all seemed to perk up and 'swing' along with the A chromatic as well. Guitarists DO love not having to work along with a C chromatic (or having an 'everything on C' player bend themselves into a pretzel trying to conform to how the guitarist usually plays. An A, G or even D instrument seems to work far more easily for most acoustic guitarists in any spontaneous setting (and I've had quite a few of those experiences) which were incredibly fun.

IF I could find a guitarist locally who'd be willing to participate in some sessions, I'd probably be playing out far more often. Maybe one of these days I'll get lucky. Till then, I'll enjoy listening to you and others like you who make full use of all that other-keyed chromatics can do. Fwiw, even one of the best guitarists I know uses a capo here and there. As far as I can see he considers it just another tool.

scotty

[Keith]

Guitar has that low E string, many people like its sound, so they would be playing lower than a regular C chrom.
My recently obtained E chrom would likely be a good one with guitar.

[AimlessWanderer]

At this stage... and it may well change later... I'm going to stick with a regular C chromatic. The main reason is that I don't know whether other tunings would be better for me or worse.

As I only envisage playing single notes (most of the time at least), the only tuning that has crossed my mind as being possibly tempting, is...

Blow Slide Out.   C, E, G#
Blow Slide In.     C#, F, A
Draw Slide Out.   D, F#, A#
Draw Slide In.     D#, G, B

... recurring. Putting 4 octaves on a 12 holer, for easier handling than a 16. This may be an utterly dreadful idea, but I don't know enough about theory or the instrument to know for sure. I might be tempted to try this further down the line though.

[Gnarly He Man]

Bingo, that's augmented or whole tone tuning, as championed by SaxonyFan.
There is also slippy tuning, where the slide raises the note a whole step--
Blow Slide Out.   C, E, G#
Blow Slide In.     D, F#, A#
Draw Slide Out.   C#, F, A
Draw Slide In.     D#, G, B

[AimlessWanderer]

Bingo, that's augmented or whole tone tuning, as championed by SaxonyFan.
There is also slippy tuning, where the slide raises the note a whole step--
Blow Slide Out.   C, E, G#
Blow Slide In.     D, F#, A#
Draw Slide Out.   C#, F, A
Draw Slide In.     D#, G, B

Oh! I had no idea it was a recognised valid tuning! Awesome!

(I have tried reading about other tunings, but brain goes into meltdown after two    )

I thought that tuning might work for me, as I don't see any benefits to duplicate notes for how I envisage using it. My tastes may well vary though, and I'd rather see where the wind takes me, rather than head for a predetermined destination (hence my screen name). Who knows where I'll end up. Probably somewhere that makes you put your jacket on backwards and give yourself a cuddle 

Thanks Gnarly!

[Gnarly He Man]

Different tunings are fun, and I am still experimenting, although I have settled on one (bebop).
The main advantage to standard tuning is that it is standard, not only is the tuning available universally, most players you hear are using it, making it easier to emulate them.
Different keyed harmonicas are another story, the main advantage to those are that it's easier to play in certain keys.
If you want to play in all keys, the best thing to do is know where all the notes are, no matter what harmonica you use.

[AimlessWanderer]

Different keyed harmonicas are another story, the main advantage to those are that it's easier to play in certain keys.
If you want to play in all keys, the best thing to do is know where all the notes are, no matter what harmonica you use.

Yeah, that's my plan. Learning music from score, regardless of what key it's in. That's (one reason) why I went for chrom. I don't expect to get into improvising, not on this instrument anyway, so I'm quite happy playing things I already know my way around. I wouldn't be averse to writing and rehearsing an accompanying part, but playing on the fly, would be something I'd do on my own with no backing, rather than trying to follow someone else's lead.

What do you find to be the advantage for you with bebop? That's just the blown C pairing the B, dropped to Bb isn't it?

[Gnarly He Man]

https://forums.SlideMeister.com/index.php?topic=12885.0

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks Gnarly

[Gnarly He Man]

Thanks Gnarly

Be careful what you wish for LOL

[AimlessWanderer]

You're not wrong! Now I'm half wishing I'd have pursued that tuning (whole tone) instead of getting the 64...

I'm not going diving into rabbit holes though. I'll learn to play what I've got. Just getting more and more stuff, won't make me play any of them any better. I've already hit a major conflict on my 10 hole valveless (grab and go) Swan being at different hole spacing to the 64 that I intend doing my main learning on - which means playing either one, throws my calibration off for playing the other - never mind the deviation from standard on the Swan's 9th and 10th hole blows. More tooters would just mean more confusion.

Less shopping, more learning...

[SaxonyFan]

Bingo, that's augmented or whole tone tuning, as championed by SaxonyFan.

Empathy compels me.

[RichChrome]

I have played guitar for a number of years, more than I care to remember. I can play most of my repertoire in any given key, however, generally speaking most music sounds best in the key it was written in. That being said, I can see the merit in playing a piece in a key you are more comfortable with, or a key where you think the song sounds better. I believe the same applies to the harmonica, so I don’t see a problem in switching from a C to an A Harmonica. Also, with regard to improvisation, it really doesn’t matter what key harmonica you are playing, if you can improvise on a C harmonica then you can improvise on an A or Bb or your choice. Lots of interesting points in this thread. R

[Gnarly He Man]

I agree with Rich, however . . .
When you are talking about a slide harmonica, there are more variables--so it's tougher to improvise if you can't remember what hole you are on and whether to follow the note you are playing with one that employs the slide--you probably know whether you are blowing or drawing ROTFLMAO
So keyed chromatics can be confusing.
But the advantages can outweigh the caveats, in the right circumstances.

[SlideMeister]

The problem I'm having lately is that I pretty much quit playing my keyed Chromes and as a result, when I play a key other than C, it's starting to mess with my head. It's the same problem Vern told me he had a buncha years ago. I didn't fully understand at the time but now I know exactly what he was talking about.  While I can still play them, I find that I'm not as "sure-footed" as I used to be, and have a harder time reaching the "total abandon" mode, and playing other keys (other than the tonic key) really "showcases" the problem.

While playing all keys on one axe is a good thing, maybe I shouldn'ta (izzat a word?) painted myself into that particular corner this late in life.   I think all I can do at this point, is to sell all my keyed 270's and start humpin' to get more fluent in all keys on the stinkin' C that my good axes are keyed in.    C is not at all my favourite keyed axe (I hate it , actually) but that's what they ALL come in. Too bad!

[Gnarly He Man]

Yeah but--
When the band is in A, I sound like a fool on a C chrom.
On a D, I sound credible, as it fingers like G.
So for sharp keys (and lots of times these toons don't change tonal centers very often), the Orchestra Bebop in D is boss.