Calling all music theory geeks!

[AimlessWanderer]

Imagine if you will, a chromatic harmonica that can change keys.

So, you have a standard C/C# harmonica, that has seven secondary buttons somewhere that changes every note by a semitone. You might press the B button, and drop the B on the C scale to a Bb, thus changing that deck to F major, but it also changes the B# (enharmonic C) to B natural, thus changing the C# to a .... whatever that works out as. My theory knowledge doesn't extend that far.

And here's where (and why) I need your help.

I have a string instrument on the way to me, which pretty much works this way. Imagine it like a concert harp but with two sets of strings which cross over. One string juts out so you can pluck it at the top, but falls behind the other strings at the bottom, and the next is prominent at the bottom so you can pluck it, and ducks behind the others at the top. So if you pluck them or strum a glissando at the bottom of the instrument, you'd get the diatonic "slide out" scale on a corresponding harmonica. Pluck the strings or strum a glissando at the top of the instrument, you get the opposing diatonic "slide out" scale on a harmonica. There are seven levers, all of which change A, B, C, D, E, F, and G by a semitone on both sets of strings (the levers are actually arranged by circle of fifths).

I have so far gleaned that with all levers "open", the lower scale strings should be tuned to Eb. As you close each lever in turn, one note on each string set goes up a semitone, and that lower scale first becomes Bb Major (by sharpening all the As), then F Major (by sharpening all the Es), then C Major (by sharpening all the Bs), and so on. Where my limited theory fails me, is what the OTHER strings should be tuned to, so that the upper scale always gives the opposing scale for all the accidentals, no matter what the lower scale is set to. Note that when all the As on the lower scale are sharpened, to go from Eb major to Bb major, all the As on the upper scale are sharpened too.

I'm asking about this here on SlideMeisters, as the instrument in question is actually Ukranian, and I can't find what I need to know in any English language reference site, and the chromatic harmonica is the only other instrument I know of which has this upper deck/lower deck complimenting diatonic arrangement to give a full chromatic scale. If there's a table somewhere of keyed chromatic harmonicas, which shows all the various pairings I might be able to figure it out from that.

Apologies if I made anyone's brain hurt, but of all the instrument forums I'm on, I figured you lot would be the best folks to ask.

[Grizzly]

Fascinating. Does this harp have a name? If you tune the lever-neutral strings in the lower rank to an b scale, the upper rank automatically is an E natural scale, if I interpret accurately what you wrote. Thus, the upper rank is like a "slide in" position on a chromatic harmonica. If you can jump between them, you can play a chromatic scale, mable by alternating hands. That sound like it might be a little clumsy, but doable. You could play the E scale, and treat the Eb scale as a flat-slide harmonica.

Keep us posted.

Tom

Is this it?

[Grizzly]

Here's another bandura recording that demonstrates exactly what you describe. She manipulates the levers for different tonal centers, and reaches up to pluck the accidnetals from time to time. Good luck! —Tom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBlSAGC4tWU

[AimlessWanderer]

You nailed it, Tom! Kiev style concert bandura.

You can just reach up for accidentals, of it that proves awkward, you can change key with the levers to bring more of what you need down to the lower deck.

There's several different types of bandura. Some are strictly diatonic, some are fixed in two complimentary diatonic keys, much like a slide harmonica, but the one that's on it's way to be has the additional sharpening levers (albeit in a different location on the instrument)

Here's how tuning the lower deck to Eb pans out, from what I can discern so far...

1 lever flipped - Bb major
2 levers flipped - F major
3 levers flipped - C major
4 levers flipped - G major
5 levers flipped - D major
6 levers flipped - A major
7 levers flipped - E major

For all other keys, you just play the upper row. So if a tune is written in B, or relative minor, you set the bottom deck to whatever the complimentary diatonic range is, and then play the tune "upstairs", dropping down to the lower strings for the accidentals. What I need to understand, is what the complimentary key to Eb is for "open tuning", and what scale it becomes as the levers change, ensuring it's still complimentary. I tried to figure it out, but I get totally lost amongst all the double sharps, enharmonics, and other theoretical brain manglers.

[Crawforde]

Nice.
I’d never heard of this instrument before.
Ingenious!
Thanks for showing us. 
As far as keyed chromatics, they are commonly, C C#, G Ab, D Eb, A Bb, Bb B,  etc.
probably the easiest way to get a full breakdown would be to open the custom configurator at seydel and choose solo, the. Put a n whatever key you are interested in, it will layout the whole harmonica for you.  It’s an addictive toy though.
Enjoy

[AimlessWanderer]

Nice.
I’d never heard of this instrument before.
Ingenious!
Thanks for showing us. 
As far as keyed chromatics, they are commonly, C C#, G Ab, D Eb, A Bb, Bb B,  etc.
probably the easiest way to get a full breakdown would be to open the custom configurator at seydel and choose solo, the. Put a n whatever key you are interested in, it will layout the whole harmonica for you.  It’s an addictive toy though.
Enjoy

So based on that, Eric, I just need the upper deck to be the major scale a semi-tone higher i.e. E major. Whether it will survive a half rotation of a circle of fifths in line with the bottom deck is something someone smarter than me would need to verify though. It seem to work up until F/F#, but then my brain explodes.

Edit:
Ahhh... now I see that's also in line with what Tom was saying before, but I was too dense to catch on. Thanks fellers.

[Grizzly]

The seven levers raise one pitch at a time up a half step, both lower and upper together. So the first lever raises all the A flats and all the A naturals up a half step. The result is to go from the keys of Eb/E to Bb/B, etc. There is a node point where the lower and upper strings pass by each other, which allows a player to access one or the other without moving very far away from the center of the strings. It's not so much that it allows a player to play chromatically, as it is to select an upper note or more to play chords that do not naturally appear in the diatonic scale. The levers provide a more wholesale transposition into a new key. The right hand plays melodies and chords. The left hand plays the bass strings, tuned to a chromatic scale; flips the levers; and plays or deadens the melody strings. The levers can be along the top, on the far side, or in the back.

The bandura is in some ways much more versatile than a standing pedal harp. The seven pedals also change pitch, and have three positions instead of two: sharp, natural, and flat, affecting all of each pitch of a diatonic scale. It may have a similar range, but no chromatic bass notes, and it is not double-strung a half step apart. The bandura has metal strings, the pedal harp nylon.

If you want to consider a parallel to harmonicas, it's like stacked tremolos of more than just two tuned a half step apart. Players can hold several at once, in different keys, minor as well as major, to play more complicated music. Sometimes a player will have even more on a table, and set some down to take up others, in the middle of a piece.

Tom

[AimlessWanderer]

The seven levers raise one pitch at a time up a half step, both lower and upper together. So the first lever raises all the A flats and all the A naturals up a half step. The result is to go from the keys of Eb/E to Bb/B, etc. There is a node point where the lower and upper strings pass by each other, which allows a player to access one or the other without moving very far away from the center of the strings. It's not so much that it allows a player to play chromatically, as it is to select an upper note or more to play chords that do not naturally appear in the diatonic scale. The levers provide a more wholesale transposition into a new key. The right hand plays melodies and chords. The left hand plays the bass strings, tuned to a chromatic scale; flips the levers; and plays or deadens the melody strings. The levers can be along the top, on the far side, or in the back.

The bandura is in some ways much more versatile than a standing pedal harp. The seven pedals also change pitch, and have three positions instead of two: sharp, natural, and flat, affecting all of each pitch of a diatonic scale. It may have a similar range, but no chromatic bass notes, and it is not double-strung a half step apart. The bandura has metal strings, the pedal harp nylon.

If you want to consider a parallel to harmonicas, it's like stacked tremolos of more than just two tuned a half step apart. Players can hold several at once, in different keys, minor as well as major, to play more complicated music. Sometimes a player will have even more on a table, and set some down to take up others, in the middle of a piece.

Tom

It's certainly a whole new approach (for me) to musicality.

Interesting (or maybe not) factoid. Before I started on this musical adventure, the first instrument that sprang to mind that I'd like to decipher and tame, was the Clarsach, or Celtic lever harp. I was initially thinking of buying just one of those, and no other instruments. Sadly, for a decent second hand one, I could have easily been looking to cough up around £2.5k to get what I wanted, and with my balance disorder, one stumble when walking by it could have shoulder barged it against the wall, and written it off. I decided to spend the same cost over a wider range of different instruments instead, although I have slightly exceeded that now.

As you say, this bandura has functional advantages, as it's like two interwoven Celtic harps, is more portable, can be stashed away easier, and cost me a fraction of what a decent lever harp would (I had to be rather patient to find a decent one though). Pedal harps are a whole new level of cost and complexity, despite only being 48 string compared to the 61 on this bandura. If you think we get frustrated with windsavers, the steel rods "talking" in the column on orchestral harps torments harpists even more by all accounts, and they costat least 4 to 5 times more than the lever harps for an equivalent grade instrument. I think the Bandura gives me the harp I wanted, but with fewer compromises. By the way, The right hand is also used for muting too, and harmonics, and the texture can be varied by playing nearer or further from the bridge, just like on a harp or guitar.

The steel strings, and being able to use guitar strings, is certainly a bonus. On pedal and lever harps, you get gut, nylon, or carbon, each of which has it's own acoustic nuances, and behavioural quirks too, and none of which are as accessible (price or availability) as the steel guitar strings. As to your harmonica comparison, Tom, I think if I tried switching harmonicas halfway through a piece, with my coordination issues, I'd probably end up smacking myself in the pie hole, and knocking a tooth out or something.  Mind you, me being smug around 12-string guitar players, and saying my 61 string guitar is mathematically 5x better than yours, might lose me a few teeth too 

[AimlessWanderer]

The levers on the one I'm getting are rather different, Tom. Identical principal, but not as easy to make block changes. I'll get some better pics up when it arrives.

[kvanbael]

I don't think the idea can be transferred to a harmonica.

First I though about interchangeable slides that would swap the slide-function on a hole-per-hole basis, but then you would be switching both blow and draw reeds.

I think the best idea, is to have a button than you can quickly press while you are playing, as to choose the accidental of the note you are playing at that time. Euh... wait a minute... that's a regular chromatic harmonica. :-)

[AimlessWanderer]

I don't think the idea can be transferred to a harmonica.

First I though about interchangeable slides that would swap the slide-function on a hole-per-hole basis, but then you would be switching both blow and draw reeds.

I think the best idea, is to have a button than you can quickly press while you are playing, as to choose the accidental of the note you are playing at that time. Euh... wait a minute... that's a regular chromatic harmonica. :-)

I think you're probably right. I'm quite happy with my regular chromatics, and I'm not even bothered about getting alternate keyed versions. I was just using them as an analogy to explain the bandura, and get my head round the tuning of the second row of strings.

I think the only way to do it with harmonicas, would be to build one of those six spoke thingies with chromatics to give you all 12 major keys. That would give you all twelve configurations on hand, maybe you could even have one slide key on the end of the axle, connected to all six harps. However, it would also be way more than I'd want to try and handle. I find a single 16 holer quite enough to manhandle.

I think my bandura should be with me either Tuesday or Wednesday, but I'll probably give it a day or two to settle and acclimatise to the new environment before I start messing around with it.

[llumagsara]

here's the idea: electro magnets in the 5 # notes so stainless steel reeds needed, on-off with exagonal buttons like the harmonetta, so with 2 fingers of the left hand you can use the 5 buttons. also if you want that the slide don't became useless in that # notes, for example in G Mj, F becames F#, so it's better that F# with normal pressed slide becames G, that will need electro magnets for all notes and an electronic Arduino arranged for do all the connections...


good health


Agustín

[AimlessWanderer]

I think my brain just fell out and rolled under the sofa 

 

[John Broecker]

Mine was blown out the window, and buried in the snow.

jb

[AimlessWanderer]

It arrived today! Sadly, there was no tuning key with it though. Based on what has been discussed in this thread, I'm not it's set up correctly, as it seems to be sharpening G, then D, then A...

There's also an added complication of each lever sharpening the vertically lower string (lower half of the instrument) and the semitone lower string, not the semitone higher as I expected. I just bought one heck of a heavy logic puzzle.

I'll figure it out... eventually

[Crawforde]

It is a pretty puzzle
Enjoy!

[Keith]

Yowser! Good luck with your new 'toy', my ukes have enough strings for me....

[frankyb]

It arrived today! Sadly, there was no tuning key with it though. Based on what has been discussed in this thread, I'm not it's set up correctly, as it seems to be sharpening G, then D, then A...

There's also an added complication of each lever sharpening the vertically lower string (lower half of the instrument) and the semitone lower string, not the semitone higher as I expected. I just bought one heck of a heavy logic puzzle.

I'll figure it out... eventually

It sure looks splendid!

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks folks 

[AimlessWanderer]

Quick update:

I figured it out!

Bottom row is the primary set, and starts in Eb, with the top row in D. Each lever sharpens one note in the scale, moving the bottom row to Bb then F, C, G, D, A and finally E. The "missing" keys appear on the upper deck, all a semi-tone below the bottom deck major scale) so all major and minor keys are available.

Still like a slide harmonica in terms of two complimentary diatonic scales though, just with C paired with B, rather than C#. All that changes is the enharmonic duplicates from C and F, to B and E.

Thanks for your help folks!

[deepsouth]

That's great, Aimless.
Shows you're one of the type with musical imperative just built in.
I'm certain a lot of us can relate.
Very cool, cool instrument there, looks-wise and construction-wise.
Looks like something that can maintain your absorption from now on and on,
and deliver tangible reward for your time and efforts.
Congradge elations.

[AimlessWanderer]

That's great, Aimless.
Shows you're one of the type with musical imperative just built in.
I'm certain a lot of us can relate.
Very cool, cool instrument there, looks-wise and construction-wise.
Looks like something that can maintain your absorption from now on and on,
and deliver tangible reward for your time and efforts.
Congradge elations.

Thanks deepsouth

My musical knowledge is still fairly embryonic, but I'm usually quite good at following simple logic, and piecing together bits of info. Once I knew which end of the row of levers to start from, whichever note that lever sharpened was the key to unravelling the whole note map. I got a tuning key through the letterbox yesterday, so I can start trying to make it playable.

I've also got a late 19th century English zither banjo being coaxed back into active service, and am also working on a 1940s button accordion. I've fixed the sticking bass keys on the accordion (which was simpler than I expected), and have now got to replace a load of valves, and a few bad reeds. I'm enjoying figuring out and working on these items mechanically, just as much as learning music.

Also in the parcel with the tuning key, was a pair of dulcimer hammers. If it proves unwieldy, playing conventionally, I can lay it flat and play it that way. it's a real heavy lump, and needs to be for the amount of string tension, which can be in the region of 5 tonnes when tuned.