Author Topic: Diminished tuning  (Read 9865 times)

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Offline Woelneberg

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2021, 05:02:01 PM »
I got it today and I only have one question. What to do with all my solo tuned chromatics? They seem useless now  :o This layout is genius! From what little mapping I have done I can already see how versatile and intuitive it is.

I am thinking now it would be fun to have two more in F# and F to get all three positions in all keys.

Offline ez-slider

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2021, 01:45:16 PM »
Just have your solos retuned. And yes welcome to the light.. things make a lot of sense over here lol    EZ

Offline Doug

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2021, 03:29:29 PM »
I don’t mean to be negative or unkind, but the playing on all of the recordings from diminished players sounds like a struggle. I don’t hear the effortless flow that is touted from this supposedly simpler layout. I’d definitely consider trying diminished tuning based on the potential advantages, but I don’t hear it in the playing as yet. If there are some impressive recordings or videos that show off diminished tuning, please post them.
Every noble work is at first impossible. - Thomas Carlyle

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2021, 03:44:01 PM »
Yeah, I've tried it, and effortless flow didn't manifest itself.
OTOH, neither did it become effortless when I switched to Bebop. But I have settled on it . . .
For effortless flow, I recommend the saxophone--just breathe, and wiggle your fingers . . .
Guitar too, no pauses because you never have to take a breath.
I like dimi better than auggie, but as stated above, I have made my choice.
You could even just practice a lot if you play standard tuning, and your flow would be less forced--but I ain't about to.

Offline Jason Rogers

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2021, 05:29:24 AM »
I don’t mean to be negative or unkind, but the playing on all of the recordings from diminished players sounds like a struggle. I don’t hear the effortless flow that is touted from this supposedly simpler layout. I’d definitely consider trying diminished tuning based on the potential advantages, but I don’t hear it in the playing as yet. If there are some impressive recordings or videos that show off diminished tuning, please post them.


You really have a way with words, Doug   :D ::)

Offline ez-slider

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2021, 09:25:30 AM »
I don’t mean to be negative or unkind, but the playing on all of the recordings from diminished players sounds like a struggle. I don’t hear the effortless flow that is touted from this supposedly simpler layout. I’d definitely consider trying diminished tuning based on the potential advantages, but I don’t hear it in the playing as yet. If there are some impressive recordings or videos that show off diminished tuning, please post them.


You really have a way with words, Doug   :D ::)
well put Jason,. Not sure I would claim that anything worthwhile is effortless. Doesn't take much effort to be a turd though.. sometimes they just flow 😬

Offline Doug

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2021, 07:40:19 PM »
well put Jason,. Not sure I would claim that anything worthwhile is effortless. Doesn't take much effort to be a turd though.. sometimes they just flow 😬

Now don’t go twisting my words. I never claimed that anything worthwhile is (or should be) effortless. I exaggerated when I said effortless flow is touted by dimi players, but diminished tuning has been discussed here before and it’s always described as intuitive, which I believe means it’s easier to master than standard tuning. One of you dimi evangelists said you’re on a mission to convert everyone to dimi. Why? Because you think it’s that much better.

Sorry to ruffle your feathers. I’m open to dimi tuning, but I’m just not convinced yet.
Every noble work is at first impossible. - Thomas Carlyle

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2021, 08:46:25 PM »
If your goal is to able to play intervals, MOLT tunings are useful.
BTW, I spoke with Grant Osborne today, he plays dimi and is still at it.

Offline ez-slider

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2021, 10:42:48 PM »
rofl rofl. Intuitive yes.. for me much more than repeated c's for sure.. and 3 patterns instead of 11, most definitely. Silver bullet to cure all your struggles with an instrument that really wasn't designed to do what we do on it. Nope. But something that makes sense in my head and let's music come out more naturally.. oh yeah. All the player previously mentioned in this thread also play far far better than I ever hope to.. and if Dimi is what helps them do it than great! If someone can do it with solo, good for them. I think asking for examples of dimi players that are up to your standards of listening my ad the wrong approach, as you may have had a preconceived opinion.. The music is what's important. But no need to evangelize anyone who is already "saved" but one looking for something my find it here.     EZ

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2021, 11:42:17 PM »
Oh! Is it three patterns?  I thought it was four. That makes it even better, eh? ;D

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2021, 12:08:16 AM »
For those of you who haven’t tried it, the note pattern is the same as you are used to on holes 1 and 3–four notes, blow, blow button, draw, draw button.
So it will make sense to you right away.
And the draw button note is the same as the blow note on the next hole.
Is there a tutorial online?

Offline Jason Rogers

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2021, 06:37:34 AM »
I don’t mean to be negative or unkind, but the playing on all of the recordings from diminished players sounds like a struggle. I don’t hear the effortless flow that is touted from this supposedly simpler layout. I’d definitely consider trying diminished tuning based on the potential advantages, but I don’t hear it in the playing as yet. If there are some impressive recordings or videos that show off diminished tuning, please post them.

Quote
Now don’t go twisting my words. I never claimed that anything worthwhile is (or should be) effortless. I exaggerated when I said effortless flow is touted by dimi players, but diminished tuning has been discussed here before and it’s always described as intuitive, which I believe means it’s easier to master than standard tuning. One of you dimi evangelists said you’re on a mission to convert everyone to dimi. Why? Because you think it’s that much better.


Sorry to ruffle your feathers. I’m open to dimi tuning, but I’m just not convinced yet.

Doug,

Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to my music! To be honest, I'm not always sure some harmonica players even get what I'm trying to do. But I know most of the really good ones do, even if they see my faults along with the good. 

You know - this is true - I have never taken a lesson on chromatic harmonica, and just a few on blues harp a long time ago.  I've always somewhat regretted that.  I seriously discussed lessons with someone on the west coast (USA) for a while, but it never materialized because of the geographical distance.  I'm sorry that didn't happen at the time.  Life is busier now, with a more demanding day job, family life, and writing some instructional books in my spare time.  You know how it is. I wonder if I'll ever have the time at this point.

Since you are here and already evaluating, do you think you could give me some tips?  I am open to any constructive criticism. 

I wouldn't expect that you've listened to everything on my website, but just the first track.  Here's the link from soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/jasonharmonica/home.  It's embedded in my website at https://jasonharmonica.com/

Thank you so much!

--Jason
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 06:41:00 AM by Jason Rogers »

Offline ez-slider

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2021, 10:48:24 AM »
For those of you who haven’t tried it, the note pattern is the same as you are used to on holes 1 and 3–four notes, blow, blow button, draw, draw button.
So it will make sense to you right away.
And the draw button note is the same as the blow note on the next hole.
Is there a tutorial online?
Angelfire.com was the best resource I found when looking in to it. Was never able to find any video tutorials.     EZ

Offline Jason Rogers

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2021, 11:53:54 AM »
For those of you who haven’t tried it, the note pattern is the same as you are used to on holes 1 and 3–four notes, blow, blow button, draw, draw button.
So it will make sense to you right away.
And the draw button note is the same as the blow note on the next hole.
Is there a tutorial online?
Angelfire.com was the best resource I found when looking in to it. Was never able to find any video tutorials.     EZ

Yes, that Angelfire.com "Harp On!" site has some good resources for alternate tunings. 

Funny story, I was a systems administrator at Lycos back in 2000 or so when I first discovered Harp On!.  Angelfire was one of the Lycos sites I maintained.  You either paid a fee for your site or ads popped up to your viewers.  I managed to turn off adds for Harp On.  No, I didn't steal from the company; there was a comp program that I got approval from.  Anyhoo, the CEO sold his stock for $74 million anyway, so I guess we(he) did ok.  He sold his stock the day after the stock split.  Just before he dumped all his stock, he sent out an email to all employees encouraging those who had stock to not sell all at once.  Ah well.

I do have some additional info on the Dimi out there.

Here's the main page:
https://jasonharmonica.com/pubs.html

Here's a good one on playing scales (hmm, I need to tidy up that URL):
https://jasonharmonica.com/Dimi%20Guide%20to%20Playing%20Major%20Scales.pdf

Here's another on major scales:
https://jasonharmonica.com/Minimum_Breath_Changes.pdf

Here's one that illustrates playing a complex line in four different keys.
https://jasonharmonica.com/line.html

Here's an introduction to Dimi that I wrote for Harmonica Happenings:
https://jasonharmonica.com/Exploring_Diminished_Tuning.pdf

And finally, some other thoughts in general:
https://jasonharmonica.com/dimi.html
https://jasonharmonica.com/thoughts_on_trying_the_dimi.html
https://jasonharmonica.com/dimi_repeat.html


 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 11:56:30 AM by Jason Rogers »

Offline ez-slider

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2021, 02:52:50 PM »
Yeah I think I just found your site after Gary was taking about you in this thread.. have not had the time to fully dive in.. nice stuff from what I have read so far.                                                                          Did you start out on Dimi Jason? I fiddled around on solo for a few years, but then was deciding to really dig in and figure the thing out. I had been thinking about PowerChrom as my tuning of choice to really get started but somehow found dimi and decided on it. I play a lot of folk stuff that changes keys with the same melody so it made a lot of sense. After playing it for a bit more than a year now it is pretty great! Not without effort but I feel a lot less brain power than on solo. Like I have said before, I might feel different if I came from a piano back ground. White keys and black ones you know. EZ

Offline Jason Rogers

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2021, 05:01:23 PM »
Hey EZ,

I played a normal 270 for a little while at first, but I was more just fooling around with it.  Then when I got more serious I played a bebop tuning for about six months.  After that, I went with Dimi, kind of bouncing around between half-valved and fully valved.

I spent a lot of time with a Hering chrom (Charlie Musselwhite model) which I had tuned to Dimi myself.  It was air-tight, bent great and had a fast slide.  I may have heard about it from Joe Leone on this site; I know he liked them.  A little bright, tone-wise, but I loved it. I think I made a construction paper gasket for the mouthpiece at one point. That was my main chrom until some time later I had a CX-12 which Pat Missin had tuned and customized for me.  I also had one or more chroms tuned to Dimi by our own Gnarly from this thread.  I have one that I always return to. 

I come from a piano and trombone background.  I tend to think in note names, so I don't play by scale numbers or by patterns.  But anyway, it's still a great advantage to be able to play in all keys.

I haven't tried the PowerChrom but it seems to me to be similar to Dimi except that you'd specialize in primary keys, where Dimi traverses all keys.  It has four enharmonics if I recall and of course, all holes are suitable for half-valving.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 07:08:27 PM by Jason Rogers »

Offline Doug

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2021, 05:15:55 PM »
Doug,

Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to my music! To be honest, I'm not always sure some harmonica players even get what I'm trying to do. But I know most of the really good ones do, even if they see my faults along with the good. 

You know - this is true - I have never taken a lesson on chromatic harmonica, and just a few on blues harp a long time ago.  I've always somewhat regretted that.  I seriously discussed lessons with someone on the west coast (USA) for a while, but it never materialized because of the geographical distance.  I'm sorry that didn't happen at the time.  Life is busier now, with a more demanding day job, family life, and writing some instructional books in my spare time.  You know how it is. I wonder if I'll ever have the time at this point.

Since you are here and already evaluating, do you think you could give me some tips?  I am open to any constructive criticism. 

I wouldn't expect that you've listened to everything on my website, but just the first track.  Here's the link from soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/jasonharmonica/home.  It's embedded in my website at https://jasonharmonica.com/

Thank you so much!

--Jason

Jason, thanks for the links. I did not previously look at your footer where you have website and soundcloud links. I foolishly looked only at your YouTube page which is pretty sparse. Also, I did not intend any personal criticism in my first post. Dimi comes up here on SlideMeister from time to time and I always get the impression that it’s easier to internalize the map and move around in it and, therefore, it’s quicker to get to the point of playing more challenging music.

It’s a big switch to change to dimi and harmonicas need to be customized, which rules out off-the-shelf instruments except for Seydel. That’s why I need to be very impressed to even consider it. When I see what players like Laurent Maur, Mathias Heise, Filip Jers, Jason Keene, and others are able to do with standard tuning, dimi is a hard sell.

I’ve listened to three of the songs on your website now and will listen to them all a few times. I’ll also look at the links about dimi tuning you provided in another post. Thanks for those.

Like you, I’ve never had a lesson on chromatic. I’m five-plus years in now and finally have the map internalized. That doesn’t mean I play great in all 12 keys. It just means I know where everything is and don’t get lost so much anymore. I feel like I’m finally at the starting line... I can finally think more about the music than the instrument. It’s been an alternately frustrating and exhilarating journey so far. I’ve played electric bass for 50 years now and it is somewhat effortless for me at this point. I’d love to have that ease of flow on chromatic. I don’t know if dimi can get me there, but I’m willing to take a look.

I doubt I’ll offer constructive criticism of your playing, but it’s very gracious of you to ask. I’m not an expert on anything musical. I’m just a fellow traveler trying to find the music.

Every noble work is at first impossible. - Thomas Carlyle

Offline Jason Rogers

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2021, 06:46:06 PM »
Hey Doug,

Thanks for your comments.  They are much appreciated.  It's easy to develop confusion and mixed messages over this media at times.

> I always get the impression that it’s easier to internalize the map and move around in it

Yes, I think in some ways it is.  But of course, as Gnarly hinted at, it's still a harmonica and has challenges.

> When I see what players like Laurent Maur, Mathias Heise, Filip Jers, Jason Keene, and others are able to do with standard tuning, dimi is a hard sell.

I would never tell any of those guys they need a Dimi :D  But, on the other hand, someone like them will pick up a Dimi one day, and the results could be pretty spectacular.  IMO. 

I was thinking about it during this thread, and we Dimi long-timers took a leap of faith when we committed to it.  There were no role models - just our imagination.  I mentioned never having a teacher, and it was somewhat due to there not being one.  I would have had to find a very open-minded and flexible teacher that could handle teaching a Dimi student when they didn't play Dimi themselves.  I'm sure they exist, but it's a small number, I imagine. 

I totally understand wanting to hear proof of value in the Dimi before committing.  But I think part of me feels that exploring the unknown is more fun.  By the time someone else totally conquers the Dimi, what will be left to discover?  Anyway, that's just me and part of what the fun has been.

> I’ve listened to three of the songs on your website now and will listen to them all a few times. I’ll also look at the links about dimi tuning you provided in another post. Thanks for those.

Very cool.  Thanks for that.  I hope you like what you see, or at least find it thought-provoking.

> I’m five-plus years in now and finally have the map internalized. That doesn’t mean I play great in all 12 keys. It just means I know where everything is and don’t get lost so much anymore.

Yeah, I get it.  It'll come, I know, especially with your experience in music.

> I don’t know if dimi can get me there, but I’m willing to take a look.

One thing I think I know; if you try a Dimi and then decide you don't like it, it won't have detracted from your Solo playing.  You can always switch between the two like riding a bike.  And... it's relatively easy to sell a Dimi, too, since they are hard to find.  Someone else will be looking to try one before long.

A thought along those lines: I wouldn't say I could cut Yvonnick Prene (or insert another great) in a dual, ever!  Since Yvonnick can play anything on the solo harmonica, he doesn't need a Dimi.  But part of the demonstration, for example, of my playing the same jazz line in Bb and E (it's in an article on my website), is that here I am, a mere mortal on harmonica - not a harmonica prodigy - playing jazz in Bb and E to the same level.  I wouldn't be able to do that on Solo. 

And yet another: For another example of a leap of faith and exploring the unknown: My good friend on this thread, Eugene, has really explored the half-valved aspect of the Dimi.  I have played side by side with him and he can play some really nice stuff.  I know from experience that trying to play the Diminished note layout and then make the most out of the blues-harp type bends is like dealing with another beast entirely.  Everything he plays is not studied perfection, just like my playing has its own imperfections.  But he is finding something new and he may very well contribute to Dimi half-valve players having a clear vision and developing a school of playing in the future.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  I personally have never had the attitude of trying to sell anyone on the Dimi.  I might get excited and talk about it a lot  ::) but in my mind, there are too many approaches to think that there is just one.

> I’m just a fellow traveler trying to find the music.

Thanks for your response, Doug, and I'll see you around the site.  Look forward to hearing your music someday.

--Jason
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 07:05:18 PM by Jason Rogers »

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2021, 07:19:47 PM »
I am here working on Matt Watson‘s CX 12s—he gave me two to work on.
One is half valved, and the other is fully valved.
Half valving is great on diminished, since there is a whole step between each pair of draw notes.
And I always have fun trying to play this tuning, but as has been fully documented, I’m sticking with bebop.

Offline Doug

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2021, 07:32:06 PM »
I am here working on Matt Watson‘s CX 12s—he gave me two to work on.
One is half valved, and the other is fully valved.
Half valving is great on diminished, since there is a whole step between each pair of draw notes.
And I always have fun trying to play this tuning, but as has been fully documented, I’m sticking with bebop.

I’m curious why the CX12 seems to be so popular for diminished tuning.
Every noble work is at first impossible. - Thomas Carlyle

Offline SlideMeister

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2021, 07:44:28 PM »
Beside being a nice tight axe, it's the flat-out, easiest to take apart and fool around with. Heck, you're all the way to the naked comb without even touching a tool.

Offline Joseph

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2021, 08:20:43 PM »
I am here working on Matt Watson‘s CX 12s—he gave me two to work on.
One is half valved, and the other is fully valved.
Half valving is great on diminished, since there is a whole step between each pair of draw notes.
And I always have fun trying to play this tuning, but as has been fully documented, I’m sticking with bebop.

I’m curious why the CX12 seems to be so popular for diminished tuning.

That brings to mind a related curiosity I had.  Hohner has some harmonica chart (example: https://old.hohner.de/typo3temp/pics/eca94639b0.png) that lists for which kind of music each of their chromatic harmonicas is supposedly best.  CX-12 is listed as best for "jazz," and people with an interest in jazz seem to like the idea of diminished tuning, so that makes sense to me, yet it leaves me wondering: what about the CX-12 supposedly makes it good for jazz in particular?  Is this chart just marketing nonsense, or is there some fundamental rationale behind it beyond simplistic, "Well, the Meisterklasse has 14 holes, so its compass is similar to that of a violin, so of course it's good for classical," or some such?  I've never played a Hohner harmonica of any variety, so I have no first hand experience which might make the answer obvious.  It can't just be, "Hey, the CX-12 is really air tight and responsive, so it's great for jazz," can it?  Because how would that be a liability with regards to, say, pop and blues, such that it doesn't get a little circle for those as well?

(I also have no idea what the "specialty" category would even entail).

Offline ez-slider

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2021, 09:50:08 PM »
Hey EZ,

I played a normal 270 for a little while at first, but I was more just fooling around with it.  Then when I got more serious I played a bebop tuning for about six months.  After that, I went with Dimi, kind of bouncing around between half-valved and fully valved.

I spent a lot of time with a Hering chrom (Charlie Musselwhite model) which I had tuned to Dimi myself.  It was air-tight, bent great and had a fast slide.  I may have heard about it from Joe Leone on this site; I know he liked them.  A little bright, tone-wise, but I loved it. I think I made a construction paper gasket for the mouthpiece at one point. That was my main chrom until some time later I had a CX-12 which Pat Missin had tuned and customized for me.  I also had one or more chroms tuned to Dimi by our own Gnarly from this thread.  I have one that I always return to. 

I come from a piano and trombone background.  I tend to think in note names, so I don't play by scale numbers or by patterns.  But anyway, it's still a great advantage to be able to play in all keys.

I haven't tried the PowerChrom but it seems to me to be similar to Dimi except that you'd specialize in primary keys, where Dimi traverses all keys.  It has four enharmonics if I recall and of course, all holes are suitable for half-valving.
very nice Jason.. it's a wonderful road. I have been toying around with the idea of half valved dimi for a while. I have an scx56 that I half valved a while back. Thinking about having Gnarly tune as he did my 48..     funny I too am a slide man,. Bass trombone that is. Music is just wonderful. I have never had proper lessons on any of my instruments, all by ear although I would like to be able to use the dots when I need them.  EZ

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2021, 11:56:23 PM »

I haven't tried the PowerChrom but it seems to me to be similar to Dimi except that you'd specialize in primary keys, where Dimi traverses all keys.
Power Chromatic tunes hole 4 blow to A and hole 2 draw to F#. It’s not a MOLT tuning.
I like it too, especially as a diatonic, since the half step bends make it darned near chromatic (only one note missing, but an important one, the b6 of the major key).

BTW, half valving affects the tone of the draw notes, since both reeds are being affected by the breath.

Offline Jason Rogers

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2021, 04:03:22 PM »
EZ said:
Quote
funny I too am a slide man,. Bass trombone that is.

I knew I liked you!  :D  8)

We have a whole lot of slidin goin on, don't we?

Actually, the Dimi, with its minor 3rds, major thirds, and adjacent-hole fourths always reminded me a bit of brass and the overtone series.  Do you feel the same?

Offline ez-slider

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2021, 09:36:37 PM »
Hadn't thought about it but maybe that's it lol. I play a Bach 50a3 double trigger bass as my main axe. Oh yeah with a screw bell conversion to it fits in a case the size of a viola 😊 gets some funny looks at the airport xRay

Offline Woelneberg

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2021, 05:09:33 PM »
I don’t mean to be negative or unkind, but the playing on all of the recordings from diminished players sounds like a struggle. I don’t hear the effortless flow that is touted from this supposedly simpler layout. I’d definitely consider trying diminished tuning based on the potential advantages, but I don’t hear it in the playing as yet. If there are some impressive recordings or videos that show off diminished tuning, please post them.

I am surprised to see all the responses here. I will try to answer your criticism from my own limited experience. I feel like it is more intuitive in the same way a guitar is. There is a predictable pattern. It doesn't make it smooth or effortless, but it makes more sense. I will show some examples.

1. With three repeating patterns it's difficult to know where I am. I will always know where I am on a solo because the pattern changes a lot. On Dimi it's like playing a solo on guitar with no open strings and eyes closed. I have to know where the notes are or I miss them. This is bad for flow, but I suspect it forces me to use my ears more. I need to listen if I am playing a G, because I can't just quickly see if there's a double C next to it. In the long run I suspect the flow will come.

2. Some arpeggios use a lot of blow or draw notes. On solo some of the chords use a fluent mix of blow, draw, button in, button out. This unilateral sense of direction in Diminished make it easy to fall of the beat. On the other hand none of the arpeggios require large jumps, next note is almost always on the next hole.  This is true for melodies too. I am learning Au Privave and on solo there are some big jumps, on Dimi they are much narrower. So far I miss the blends of colors in the chords on solo, but I welcome the ease of switching between keys without thinking too much.

3. It is a lot of button work, this probably make it more difficult to play fluently.

These are three aspects about the Dimi that I am reflecting on so far. It is not all good, but I suspect it will improve. In the end I don't think it matters if you play solo or Dimi. If you put in the same amount of practice as Filip Jers, Toots Thiel man's or any of the other pros I really don't think it matters. Any layout will sound perfect. Myself I got very exhausted learning all the arpeggios and scales in 11 patterns, always dealing with the numerous Cs. Dimi allows me to play more keys faster, but it doesn't make me a better player. If anything I have taken 12 steps back.

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2021, 05:55:52 PM »
"If you don't play with your finger, thumb, whatever on the button, (and use it a lot) you're not a Chromatic player." Think about that, before you take offense.  ::)

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Offline Jimmy Halfnote

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2021, 06:12:30 PM »


   

                                                           jh.
 
   

Offline Doug

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Re: Diminished tuning
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2021, 01:54:51 AM »
I don’t mean to be negative or unkind, but the playing on all of the recordings from diminished players sounds like a struggle. I don’t hear the effortless flow that is touted from this supposedly simpler layout. I’d definitely consider trying diminished tuning based on the potential advantages, but I don’t hear it in the playing as yet. If there are some impressive recordings or videos that show off diminished tuning, please post them.

I am surprised to see all the responses here. I will try to answer your criticism from my own limited experience. I feel like it is more intuitive in the same way a guitar is. There is a predictable pattern. It doesn't make it smooth or effortless, but it makes more sense. I will show some examples.

1. With three repeating patterns it's difficult to know where I am. I will always know where I am on a solo because the pattern changes a lot. On Dimi it's like playing a solo on guitar with no open strings and eyes closed. I have to know where the notes are or I miss them. This is bad for flow, but I suspect it forces me to use my ears more. I need to listen if I am playing a G, because I can't just quickly see if there's a double C next to it. In the long run I suspect the flow will come.

2. Some arpeggios use a lot of blow or draw notes. On solo some of the chords use a fluent mix of blow, draw, button in, button out. This unilateral sense of direction in Diminished make it easy to fall of the beat. On the other hand none of the arpeggios require large jumps, next note is almost always on the next hole.  This is true for melodies too. I am learning Au Privave and on solo there are some big jumps, on Dimi they are much narrower. So far I miss the blends of colors in the chords on solo, but I welcome the ease of switching between keys without thinking too much.

3. It is a lot of button work, this probably make it more difficult to play fluently.

These are three aspects about the Dimi that I am reflecting on so far. It is not all good, but I suspect it will improve. In the end I don't think it matters if you play solo or Dimi. If you put in the same amount of practice as Filip Jers, Toots Thiel man's or any of the other pros I really don't think it matters. Any layout will sound perfect. Myself I got very exhausted learning all the arpeggios and scales in 11 patterns, always dealing with the numerous Cs. Dimi allows me to play more keys faster, but it doesn't make me a better player. If anything I have taken 12 steps back.

Thanks, Woelneberg, for your thoughts on dimi. I’m sure that if you stick with it, you’ll develop the muscle memory for where all the notes are and it will feel natural. I’ve gotten attached to the double Cs in solo tuning because one or the other of them makes some lines easier to play. I like having a choice. 

I’m glad you mentioned that you feel like there’s a lot of button pushing with dimi. I noticed that in the videos I watched but didn’t mention it because I didn’t know what key the songs were in or the difficulty of the lines being played.
Every noble work is at first impossible. - Thomas Carlyle