Author Topic: Augmented/Diminished tuning fan club?! (Read 91749 times)

Eugene Ryan · « **Reply #60 on:** April 22, 2009, 04:23:57 PM »

Hey there,

Thanks. Mercy Mercy Mercy is on an Eb diatonic harmonica in Bb. I do it on chrom now too. The others are on a G diminished CX12.

Yeah, myspace foobar'd up any encodings I put up there. Pity, as the original was well recorded. I'm not doing anything with the original track as there are some mistakes in it and I feel that I play much better now - feel free to download:

- it's 9Mb, though but much better quality

Quote

But it does sound interesting, useful, and apparently easir to convert.

Yep, yep and yep!

Quote

If I end up keeping the meisterklasse, I could be tempted...

Then definitely not, I'm going off this tuning myself, couldn't recommend it, eh...

Eugene

roady43 · « **Reply #61 on:** April 22, 2009, 07:51:12 PM »

Quote from: Grizzly on April 22, 2009, 07:59:38 AM

Quote from: chromaddict on April 22, 2009, 01:33:26 AM
8<
And to the rest of you, who are so set in your ways, you don't know what you're missing!
How does it affect our sight-reading?

Tom

The easy thing in solo-tuning is, because "one always is (forced somehow)" thinking in C (major) as a base pattern: push the button for sharps or flats. That's very nice for music which does not alter much from the main key (C in general) and for playing simple melodies. For more complicated music it's nice to listen to people like Toots Thielemans and all the other virtuosos and see and adore how they manage the irregular redundant layout on their instruments.

Reading music in symmetrically tuned harmonicas (f.e. AUGMENTED

) gives you more confidence and independence for playing in any key you want or need to play. After getting used to the new layout, uniform distances and regular blow/draw patterns for all intervals makes sight-reading easy. IMO. Reading and playing scales f.e. is very easy because you only have to change the pattern (slider/breath) when a half-tone step demands it. You never have to worry about which hole to chose because there is only one for the same tone (in augmented at least!).

In my opinion AUGMENTED tuning is superior for the whole melody-instrument repertoire.

I do not know a lot of original compostions for solo-tuned harmonica but for pieces with chords, they can only relay on very few intervals (restricted because of the binding to the key of the instrument). Nevertheless I like Tommy Reilly's interpretation (in C!) of the "Gavotte en Rondeau" from Bach's E major Partita for violin solo...

Anyway I prefer the harmonica as a melody instrument and refrain on chords... So new term needed!!! What about Chrolodica, Nonchordica, Monodica or AUGMENTICA!!!?

Roady

Grizzly · « **Reply #62 on:** April 22, 2009, 09:16:01 PM »

Quote from: roady43 on April 22, 2009, 07:51:12 PM

8<
The easy thing in solo-tuning is, because "one always is (forced somehow)" thinking in C (major) as a base pattern: push the button for sharps or flats.

In my opinion AUGMENTED tuning is superior for the whole melody-instrument repertoire.

I do not know a lot of original compostions for solo-tuned harmonica but for pieces with chords, they can only relay on very few intervals (restricted because of the binding to the key of the instrument). Nevertheless I like Tommy Reilly's interpretation (in C!) of the "Gavotte en Rondeau" from Bach's E major Partita for violin solo...

Anyway I prefer the harmonica as a melody instrument and refrain on chords... So new term needed!!! What about Chrolodica, Nonchordica, Monodica or AUGMENTICA!!!?

Roady

I love that piece! It's one of my favorite Bach movements.

I suppose Melodica is already taken.

I'm playing in G minor, F minor, A minor, F major, D minor, A major, two modal keys based on E, and D major, as well as C major, on my upcoming recital, all on solo-tuned C harmonicas. Only one has chords, and it's in D minor, the only one (besides my own) written for harmonica. I'm using enharmonics in five different keys. I'm using half-tone trills in some places, and an A/B trill in another.

As you might gather, I'm not "thinking in C" and "push[ing] the button for sharps and flats," anymore than I would on flute. These aren't exactly simple melodies I'm playing; some are, but Bach, Marcello, Chopin, Gluck, Rachmaninoff, were no chumps.

I'm not dismissing anything other than solo tuning out of hand; but right now, I'm comfy with what I've got. I understand that diminished tuning has lots of enharmonics, which intrigues me. Someday, maybe. but not in the next three weeks.

Tom

chromaddict · « **Reply #63 on:** April 24, 2009, 01:02:41 PM »

I just got the augmented from Gary today

Great job Gary, I know you slaved over it. I do think we will need to do some reed replacement. I can't do much with the bottom two holes.

It's ironic that the augmented retune is such a 'major' job. Also, I can't help my growing curiousity with diminished tuning. I am intrigued by the evenly spaced enharmonics, and the fact that it is a much easier retune is appealing.

You aren't planning to retire any time soon, Gary.

Gnarly He Man · « **Reply #64 on:** April 24, 2009, 04:45:00 PM »

Hooray!
I am happy to keep working on it--and yes, there are many hours of love poured into this harp.
You better hang on to the 260 for now, since I will probably be getting the 270 back sooner rather than later--but no hurry on that one either

Gary
PS I have a Hering 10 hole chromatic I retuned to diminished, if you want to try that one.
G

chromaddict · « **Reply #65 on:** April 25, 2009, 11:37:59 AM »

Yes, Yes, once again you are HE MAN! What note is it based off of, btw, and will you be passing by a post office anytime soon?

As far as the 270, I want to keep it for a bit - to see if any other problems develop.

Thanks for everything!

chromaddict · « **Reply #66 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:11:06 PM »

I got the Seydel Deluxe augmented today. I have received two augmented chromes in 3 days! I think I will call the guiness book of world records. It's tuned the same as the one from Gary, E3 to Eb7. Except that they put an Eb6 on top? I guess they couldn't find any Eb7 reeds.

It's tuned pretty well, but it doesn't quite have the tone of a Hohner, IMO. Also, it had a Seydel sticker on the back of the comb, which seemed kind of cheap and tacky. I peeled it right off - no need to alert the wife that there is a new member in the family.

Gary, I should be ready to send the 260 and the 270 back pretty soon. Plus I want to try the diminished tuning.

Grizzly · « **Reply #67 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:29:14 PM »

Hohner, Hering and Suzuki label their harmonicas also. Hohner didn't use to; it may have started with the CX-12.

It's a little like the "designer labels" on fruit and eggs.

Back when Hohner was the Gold Standard, perhaps other makers were content to have theirs mistaken for Hohners if it increased the possibility of a sale. Even the cover design of the Super Chromonica (270) was somewhat slavishly copied.

When quality started to match, or even surpass, Hohner's, I can see why makers would want to distinguish theirs with their own labels. Hohner would have to follow suit.

I guess the ultimate would be a harmonica so expensive and distinctive that it wouldn't need to be branded. Kind of brings it full circle.

All speculation.

Tom

chromaddict · « **Reply #68 on:** April 28, 2009, 07:46:53 AM »

I'm not against companies putting their name on their harmonicas. But Seydel uses this silly little plastic sticker. It reminded me of something you would find on the front of a new television. And of course, you peel it right off, which is what I did.

No big deal, it just seems like they would spend the extra 10 cents to permanently brand their instruments.

chromaddict · « **Reply #69 on:** April 28, 2009, 04:12:22 PM »

Gary,

How about I send you one of those edumacators for a diminished tuning trial?

Gnarly He Man · « **Reply #70 on:** April 28, 2009, 04:28:47 PM »

Sounds good--do you have one in hand? I'd love to evaluate one--might wind up buying one

G
PS Don't tell my wife

chromaddict · « **Reply #71 on:** April 28, 2009, 04:36:30 PM »

No - I just figured I'd buy it online and have it shipped directly to you. How about if I send you two and you can keep one to cover the tuning job.

Gnarly He Man · « **Reply #72 on:** April 28, 2009, 05:01:33 PM »

That sounds like a deal--I don't think diminished tuning is that tough to do, provided you will accept an instrument that starts on C#--
See attached chart--it's for a 12 hole, but same deal--small changes, and not all the holes are altered (truly makes it easier!)
G

chromaddict · « **Reply #73 on:** April 29, 2009, 12:09:54 PM »

I sent one edumacator and I will send another soon. Basing on C# is fine. Eugene bases off of G so I'll one more thing in common with him. If you don't mind doing this one first I'd like to hold on to the 270 for a while longer. I'm really enjoying it!

Gnarly He Man · « **Reply #74 on:** April 29, 2009, 03:09:50 PM »

Yes, although I will stand by my work on the 270, I don't need to see it again any time soon

And will attend to the valveless wonder when it arrives.
Cheers!
Gary
PS Worthy of note--the tuning arrangement is the same on the aug and the dimi, just that the chords are different--
In other words, the enharmonic which exists on the dimi is the big difference--each hole on each tuning has 4 notes on each hole, in the same arrangement as hole one of a standard chromatic (see, it's not that tough to learn after all $:-\$ )
G

Gnarly He Man · « **Reply #75 on:** April 30, 2009, 02:39:34 AM »

A thousand apologies for breaking the rules here--
Just digging thru my myriad harmonicas (getting pretty deep here--time to clean up) and discovered a 364 Soloist that I had tuned to diminished--it's chromatic, the draw bends give you the missing note. Seems like this would be a good tool for learning the diminished chrom . . .
Eugene, did you start with a diatonic dimi?
Gary

Eugene Ryan · « **Reply #76 on:** April 30, 2009, 06:55:59 AM »

Quote

Eugene, did you start with a diatonic dimi?

Nope. I went straight to chrom from richter diatonic (and variations) as I wanted to get away from the intonation and timbre issues inherent in playing diatonic harmonicas chromatically. And for playing chromatically of course

I was an overblow diatonic player, and like an ex-smoker, I won't have anything to do with it now

ok well, maybe the odd puff. Just kidding, I do some alright but I spend way more time on chromatic. I spent some time on solo-tuning for jazz before moving over to diminished chromatic for that.

If you take an airtight chromatic like a CX12, you can strip the outside valves off and get diatonic-style bending - in effect giving you a diminished tuned diatonic where the bent notes are also available with the slide (or vice versa - I see it more as a diminished chrom that can sound like a diatonic when you want it to). The half-valved chromatic is bigger than a diatonic due to the extra reeds and increase in reedplate size, and some air may leak through the slide - but you can get them pretty airtight if you work on the slide and gapping.

I kind of can't see the point in diminished diatonic if you've got an airtight diminished chrom. Having said that, I haven't tried it. There's Alfred Hirsch and Ed Coogan, although Ed doesn't use it any more as far as I know.

I think it's a topic that is kind of in between the diatonic and chromatic worlds... there are more and more players here on the forum that have come from a diatonic background. My opinion, anyway.

Eugene

Gnarly He Man · « **Reply #77 on:** April 30, 2009, 11:39:24 AM »

Quote from: Eugene Ryan on April 30, 2009, 06:55:59 AM

I kind of can't see the point in diminished diatonic if you've got an airtight diminished chrom.

Well, it lives in a box--
I considered retuning it to something, perhaps at some point.
This particular harp was tuned to something else for a while--
I don't really like Marine Bands anyway--but there are not a lot of solo tuned diatonics out there.
g

Don Lorenzo · « **Reply #78 on:** May 14, 2009, 12:19:23 AM »

Hey, Agumented Fans!

Failure to Thrive may be our fatal diagnosis.

What's Happening to us?

Don Lorenzo
The 'Don' of the Romantic Harmonica

chromaddict · « **Reply #79 on:** May 16, 2009, 10:29:52 AM »

Don,

I just sent Gary an educator so that I can try out diminished tuning. I must admit, I've been playing out using good ole standard tuning. However, I am interested in diminished tuning for mostly the same reasons that I'm interested in augmented tuning. Diminished has the added benefit of being a much easier conversion, which means I must consider it before going farther down the augmented path.

In any event, I have a 4 year plus head start on standard tuning so I don't think I'll be abandoning it altogether any time soon, and I still believe that I can become fluent on multiple tunings.

I agree we should keep this thread alive - the few, the proud $:-\$

roady43 · « **Reply #80 on:** May 20, 2009, 06:30:01 PM »

Here is a selection of my "augmented repertoire":

"The sad Tango" from the seventies (sung by French singer Mireille Mathieu), "Are you lonesome tonight". Both performed in June at a marketing event with my Salon Orchestra "Kaiserschmarrn".

Some typical violin pieces like "Liebesleid", "Schoen Rosmarin" and "Syncopation" by Fritz Kreisler or the "Allegro" by a baroque composer called Joseph Hector Fiocco.

The Mozart duets for two bassett horns are just charming and delightful on the harmonica. I play them from time to time with a friend. We also played the slow movement of the concerto for oboe and violin by Bach just for fun. This guy is an excellent player (solotuning) and does a lot of jazz professionally with the harmonica and double bass.

I recently started with "The Bumble Bee" by Rimsky Korsakov which is exceptionally suitable for Half Tone Slide Augmented harmonica! But still needs a lot of practice...

I study violin etudes, scales and arpeggios using my violin music.

Tell us your repertoire for augmented tuning!

roady43

jazmaan · « **Reply #81 on:** May 20, 2009, 09:15:48 PM »

How about posting some video to YouTube?

jazmaan · « **Reply #82 on:** May 20, 2009, 10:03:55 PM »

One of the first custom chromatics I ever got was "Toni II" an augmented 10 hole CX-style (but all metal) harp made for me by Seigfried Naruhn. It's a lovely little (and I do mean little!) harp with all sorts of innovations including Seigfried's "dimpled" mouthpiece full of tiny indentations intended to hold moisture for easy slippery sliding up and down the harp, and an optional keyring for Wim Djkgraff style "effortless" springless playing. I'd consider selling it if anyone is interested in this museum piece. I wonder if anyone else owns a CX-10? Did Brendan Powers ever make them?

Don Lorenzo · « **Reply #83 on:** May 21, 2009, 10:17:08 AM »

Quote from: jazmaan on May 20, 2009, 10:03:55 PM

I wonder if anyone else owns a CX-10? Did Brendan Powers ever make them?

Yes, Jazzman!

I have a whole-tone Augmented Tuning in a CX-10 made by Brendan. It's a great size, and fun to play. Badly out of tune, now. I want to get my new CX-12 Jazz retuned to the same tuning, sometime soon, I hope.

Keep on Harpin'!

Don Lorenzo
The 'Don' of the Romantic Harmonica
Weslaco, Texas USA

chromaddict · « **Reply #84 on:** May 21, 2009, 01:05:08 PM »

How much do you want for the cx jazman? You can send me a personal message.

Eugene Ryan · « **Reply #85 on:** May 21, 2009, 04:31:54 PM »

Jazmaan,

Could you post any pics of this? I've often wondered what they were like. I tried to contact Seigfried at one stage, but I may have had his contact details wrong.

Thanks,
Eugene

jazmaan · « **Reply #86 on:** May 25, 2009, 10:40:26 PM »

Sorry but I can't seem to upload anything here. It tells me the "upload folder is full".

For those of you who expressed interest in buying "Toni III", I've decided to hold on to the harp at least until SPAH. If you're going to SPAH, I'll have it with me and we can talk about it then.

I've revived my interest in Wholetone/Augmented 3rd tuning over the past few days. I'm realizing what I liked and didn't like about it. You've got the absolute maximum number of notes crammed into the smallest number of holes as possible. This means that side to side movement on the harp is minimal, which can be a good thing. But it also means that breath direction changes and button pushes are maximal, which usually isn't such a good thing.

But I've always been a sucker for miniaturization and if nothing else, "Toni III" is certainly tiny with a big range.

chromaddict · « **Reply #87 on:** May 28, 2009, 06:54:11 AM »

Jazmaan,

Since you don't want to sell your augmented CX-10, I will assume you are now a part of the augmented/diminished fan club.

That's 7 by my count!

Grant

Gnarly He Man · « **Reply #88 on:** May 28, 2009, 06:46:17 PM »

I'm one of 'em, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-EojNxBoEE
I do not do myself proud on this one . . .
But I promise to try to learn aug when the 260 returns--a little bit anyway . . .
Wanted to video/post this one before I return the retuned Educator 10.
Gary

Jason Rogers · « **Reply #89 on:** May 29, 2009, 01:56:38 PM »

Great thread! I play dimi primarily. Love it! I haven't tried augmented...sounds tough having no enharmonics at all?

So Gary, you tuned a C solo to C# dimi. I should try that sometime. I have been tuning mine from A solo to A dimi, which works quite well too.

Jason