Author Topic: The "LeGato" Tuning  (Read 96518 times)

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oldstudent

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #330 on: July 31, 2014, 12:53:26 PM »
In the second-to-last measure of Doodlin, I think I see an F-Ab-F triplet that would be a minor third, but that's the only one.  This and the other wholestep-pairs in the tune all can be played easily without breath changes on an Ab fourkey.

I have been thinking more about the merits of a legato-like chromatic harmonic that is based on the pentabender instead of the fourkey tuning.  Let me try to compare it with the Legato and other such pentatonic-based chromatic harmonics.

The "C" Legato has an F pentatonic scale on the button-out blows and an E pentatonic scale on the button-out draws.  Pushing in the button raises everything a half-step.  So the blow notes include all the notes in the F and F# pentatonic scales, that is all chromatic notes except E and B.  Similarly, the draw notes include all the notes in the E and F pentatonic scales, that is all notes except Eb and Bb.

Thus, in the "C" Legato, we have four notes that can be played only in one breath direction:  E and B only as draws, Eb and Bb only as blows.  When we look at these pairs on the circle of fifths these seem far apart, and I've noted that there is only one pentatonic scale (the B) that crosses these two groups and so requires a change of breath on the Lagato.  But when we look at these two pairs on the piano keyboard, they are very close!  Indeed, we have two half-tone pairs that cannot be played without breath change on a Legato: Eb to E, and Bb to B.

In a "C" pentabender-based chromatic, the blow note are the same as the "C" Legato, but the button-out draw notes are a G pentatonic scale, which becomes a G# pentatonic scale when you push the button in, and so the draw notes now include all notes except F# and C#.  Thus, in the "C" chromatic pentabender, we have four notes that can be played only in one breath direction: E and B only as draws, F# and C# only as blows.  So all half-step pairs can be played without breath change (7 as simple tongue shakes, 5 as coordinated tongue-and-finger shakes), but we have two whole-step pairs that require a breath change (E to F#, and B to C#).

Consider now a "C pentabopper" harmonica that differs from the C pentabender in that the G draw note is changed to an F#.  Now the draw notes form a D (major) pentatonic scale, with the blow notes still forming an F major (or D minor) pentatonic scale on the blow notes.  So this harmonica without a button can play both the C and G major scales (a bebop scale).  When we add a button that sharps everything, we get a "C chromatic pentabopper" (forgive the terminology) in which the notes that can be played only in one breath direction are: E and B only as draws, C# and G# only as blows.  Now all half-step intervals can be played without breath change, and only one whole-step interval requires a breath change (B to C#).  I think that this is the best that one can do with pentatonic-based chromatic harmonicas.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 02:24:13 PM by oldstudent »

oldstudent

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #331 on: July 31, 2014, 03:49:19 PM »
To help visualize the tunings that I discussed above, here are their layouts

LEGATO (CHROMATIC FOURKEY)
Blow-In      F# G# Bb C# Eb F# G# Bb C# Eb     (=F# pentatonic)
Blow-Out     F  G  A  C  D  F  G  A  C  D      (=F pentatonic)
Draw-Out     F# G# B  C# E  F# G# B  C# E      (=E pentatonic)
Draw-In      G  A  C  D  F  G  A  C  D  F      (=F pentatonic)

CHROMATIC PENTABENDER
Blow-In      F# G# Bb C# Eb F# G# Bb C# Eb     (=F# pentatonic)
Blow-Out     F  G  A  C  D  F  G  A  C  D      (=F pentatonic)
Draw-Out     G  A  B  D  E  G  A  B  D  E      (=G pentatonic)
Draw-In      G# Bb C  Eb F  G# Bb C  Eb F      (=G# pentatonic)

CHROMATIC PENTABOPPER
Blow-In      F# G# Bb C# Eb F# G# Bb C# Eb     (=F# pentatonic)
Blow-Out     F  G  A  C  D  F  G  A  C  D      (=F pentatonic)
Draw-Out     F# A  B  D  E  F# A  B  D  E      (=D pentatonic)
Draw-In      G  Bb C  Eb F  G  Bb C  Eb F      (=Eb pentatonic)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 09:27:43 AM by oldstudent »

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #332 on: July 31, 2014, 10:15:19 PM »
Oh yeah!  That very last Doodlin' triplet is a minor third,  you're right!   I like that name PentaBopper!   Maybe Gary can try making one someday.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:20:16 PM by jazmaan »

John Titor

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #333 on: August 26, 2014, 11:21:48 PM »
Greetings Friends, I am a long time 'lurker' on the 4-key- 'Legato' threads and was lucky enough to have purchased Gary's 64 Legato 2 years ago.  Have been desperately wanting to get into some study and practice on it, but life has gotten in the way, as it does.  I believe Gary has retuned it to a 'G' 1st hole blow.  Was wondering about your color-Harmony Assistant files Jazzman, have downloaded all the Myriad software and have been fooling around with it.  Could I trouble you for a copy of your color-assistant template?  I know I will have to transpose over to a 'G' Legato layout somehow.  Also found a link to all the Wikifonia(?) chart files that were removed or taken down.  All 15,000 or so.  Not sure if am allowed to post the link here though, but they work great with Harmony Assistant.  really impressed by the software.
Cheers :)

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #334 on: August 26, 2014, 11:38:58 PM »
I'll try to find some time this weekend to send you a color script.  But the first thing you need to do is create a custom tuning tablature layout for your G at hole 1 16 holer. The color script won't work properly until you do that. 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 11:43:28 PM by jazmaan »

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #335 on: August 27, 2014, 12:10:18 AM »
Hey John, glad you made it here!
As I recall, it's C penta blow, B penta draw?

John Titor

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #336 on: August 27, 2014, 01:45:49 AM »
Thank you for the replies Jazzman, and Gary.  Will study the Assistant software tutorials and do some research.
Gary, am attempting to write down the notes.  Blow, draw, etc.  I know it was originally an A, as it still has the sticker on it.  If memory serves, I remember you retuned it down to a G for Legato.  Will find some better note recognition software and post when I'm sure of the note layout.
Cheers.

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #337 on: August 27, 2014, 01:49:26 AM »
When you retune for Legato, you have to tune the bottom up and the top down.
If this is the 16 holer, I tuned the C3 up to G3, and IIRC, the blow notes are G, A, C, D, F.
Oops, that's F penta, I bet yours is F penta blow, E penta draw.

G   A   C   D   F
Ab  B  C# E   F#
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 01:55:55 AM by Gnarly He Man »

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #338 on: August 27, 2014, 08:49:39 PM »
You'll need to define a custom harmonica layout for Harmony Assistant. 

 If you're starting from a completely new blank page its:  Staff>Tablature Setup>Harmonica> Harmonica Type drop down > Chromatic >  "Pitch of the note when you blow in the first hole" = G3 > Click "Define" button > Fill in all the blank holes with the appropriate notes > Save

Or you may be able to save a step by loading in one of HA's predefined harmonica templates and then modify the Tab layout from Solo to LeGato and save.

You'll also get lots of choices as to the tab symbols and positioning.   I prefer the big triangles myself, but honestly I don't look at them much because the colored note script works so well for me.  But like I said,  you need to define the layout before the colored note script will work for you.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 08:52:14 PM by jazmaan »

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #339 on: August 29, 2014, 09:11:20 PM »
John,  just curious as to how much musical experience you may already have?  How well do you read standard notation?  How much previous harmonica experience do you have?

I if I understand your layout correctly,  its essentially a C Legato with extra low notes down to G.    Once you've got your layout programmed in Harmony Assistant I can send you some simple exercises.  My colored note tabbed exercises should work for you if you disregard the hole numbers and just remember that you've got some low notes that I don't have on my CX-12.  (I have a 16 hole Legato also, but mine starts on Low C.)  As I've said,  I don't pay much attention to the tab symbols and hole numbers anyway,  I just look at the colored notes.   And those note colors should also work for your harp.


You'll find many scales and exercises can be played without changing breath direction, but you'll have to manually go into Harmony Assistant's score and change the software's enharmonic choices to get it to display those "breath simple" phrases.    Even though it may be impractical to play extended phrases all in one breath direction,  you should still learn where those "breath simple" phrases exist.    For example,  on my CX-12,  the C major scale can be played (in the middle register) entirely on the draw plane. (On your harp even the low register can play a C major scale entirely on the draw plane).    But to get Harmony Assistant to display that breath simple phrasing,  you'll have to manually change some of its enharmonic choices.   When you're ready,  I can instruct you how to make those manual changes if you can't figure out how yourself.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 09:30:13 PM by jazmaan »

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #340 on: August 30, 2014, 02:06:08 AM »
Mr. Jaz, he is playing the same 16 hole harp you brought back to me at Spring Harp Fest, so you have played this instrument.
Hopefully you remember the layout . . .

John Titor

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #341 on: September 04, 2014, 11:54:53 PM »
Thank you so much for replying gentlemen, I have spent the whole time since my last post writing an affidavit.  Have a background in professional writing and editing, but this, well, it reminds me of the Jaws line "were going to need a bigger boat".. 
Regardless, thank you for the detailed reply Jazzman, will be attempting to coax the computer to behave tonight and I will look at the HA again.
I have a basic ear playing ability on the diatonic, but nothing to write home about.
My main focus is to learn this chromatic and (hopefully) build up the strength in my soft palate (obstructive sleep apnea).
Gary, just wondering, I have been attempting to find the layout using the Overblow scale-finder to see if I can write out some basic scales, but I am at a complete loss. I'm usually at a complete loss, but as Ive tried again and again to work it out, maybe you could correct me here.
Again, thank you for replying gentlemen, and I apologize for the late, late reply.
J.

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #342 on: September 05, 2014, 01:09:56 AM »
I am going to assume that the layout I posted above is correct:
F pentatonic on the blow notes and E pentatonic on the draw, starting on G3.
Using this page www.overblow.com/?menuid=26&type=chrom# you can select 7.1, start from hole four and the charts should work.

John Titor

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #343 on: September 06, 2014, 12:44:31 AM »
lol...  Ive been doing it all wrong ;)  Yes, the layout you posted was right on the money.  I forgot to mention last post.
Thank you very much Gary, I am going to have a lot of fun with this.  Cheers.

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #344 on: September 06, 2014, 02:28:08 AM »
Cool beans!
I don't spend as much time with this tuning as it deserves, let's see how it treats you!
Every note but Eb and Bb has an enharmonic!

Offline wolfman

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #345 on: September 06, 2014, 11:03:39 AM »


    Hello!Gary :)

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #346 on: September 06, 2014, 12:16:00 PM »
Hi Roman--
I am trying to practice chromatic again--I was spending my time on the chord harper but no gigs for that at present, so it goes to the back burner.

Jazmaan, you should book some gigs with the LeGato, or perhaps play an open mike somewhere, just to get the crazy futuristic sound of the Slide Fourkey out there into the universe.
Maybe the Coffee Gallery? You would have to learn some bluegrass tho . . .

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #347 on: September 06, 2014, 12:59:18 PM »
At SPAH I did lots of jamming with some really good Chromatic players - all of them on Solo tuning (Diminished tuning was not very well represented at SPAH 2014).   Very few of them were aware that I was using an altered tuning until I played some of the jazzy chords that are unique to the LeGato.  It was those chords that drew double-takes and smiles from my jamming partners. 

Offline wolfman

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #348 on: September 06, 2014, 04:23:04 PM »


      Good Luck,for more gigs,Gary.
  Will be heading Nebraska next  week,for six weeks to the pumpkin patch.

PeterD

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #349 on: December 15, 2014, 06:18:37 PM »
I've been lurking since I joined the forum two months ago. Now I think it might be nice to provide another data point for those interested in the Legato tuning.

I'm a blues diatonic player who hadn't been playing in a while -- I just got tired with the genre. This forum got me interested in the possibility of playing jazz on the chrom. So I bought a Legato-tuned Seydel De Luxe and gave it a whirl. I decided to take a much more deliberative approach to the instrument than I had with diatonic. So far, I've managed to learn the major scales in 'breath simple' fingering. I really like the idea that I can learn the fingering of four keys blow-only (Bb, Eb, Ab, and Db)
and then just drop down a hole and get four keys draw-only (A, D, G, C) on the same respective fingering. B, E, Gb and F are the only slightly weird in comparison. I don't think the spread of an octave over so many holes is much of an issue. I can make octave jumps accurately most of the time. In summary, four weeks into it and everything considered, I think I'm picking this up pretty quickly.

So I'm having fun! I'd like to thank this forum and especially jazmaan for his posting and innovative attitude that have made that possible.

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #350 on: December 16, 2014, 09:45:16 PM »
Welcome aboard PeterD!   If you have any questions about my approach to the tuning, ask away!

PeterD

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #351 on: December 17, 2014, 07:22:14 PM »
Thanks, Jazmaan! Well here's my (perhaps naive) first question: How valuable are tablature, generally? I've tried Harmony Assistant and I think it is quite impressive. I'll probably buy it sooner or later, with or without its tablature and PDF decoding capabilities. But in the meantime I was thinking of becoming proficient enough that I can look at notation and play; that's what one would do with most instruments, after all. Do chromatic players generally rely on tablature?

I guess that's a question more general than fits the Legato thread, so here's a Legato twist to it: My intuition is that I'm more likely to eschew tablature with Legato than I would with more dense tunings.

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #352 on: December 18, 2014, 10:41:41 PM »
I use my own system within Harmony Assistant of colored note tablature.   Although Harmony Assistant also adds more traditional tablature under the staff,  I rarely pay any attention to that.  What I'm looking at is the notation where I assign four different colors to the notes depending on whether they are blow slide-out, blow slide-in, draw slide-out, or draw slide-in. 

I practice various exercises  using that combination of traditional notation with colored notes.    Just because you can play a phrase "breath simple" or "button simple" doesn't mean that you'll generally pick just one or the other.   By artfully selecting your enharmonics and where you change breath direction you can make phrases easier to play and even more mellifluous.     So once I find the most flowing way to phrase an exercise I'll
notate/tab it out in Harmony Assistant with colored notes and practice that particular phrasing until it becomes muscle memory.



 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 10:45:00 PM by jazmaan »

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #353 on: January 27, 2017, 05:23:43 PM »
I just noticed that the "Scale Finder" at Overblow.Com seems to be busted.   In fact the whole website seems to be busted. :<  Anyone know how long this has been going on?

Offline Crawforde

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #354 on: January 27, 2017, 06:48:17 PM »
It's been a while since I looked.
It's also been a long time since I played with a four key harp.
I haven't given up, just been too busy.

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #355 on: February 12, 2017, 07:46:59 PM »
Scalefinder is working again.   I've been playing a bit of Bebop tuning on my Eb CX-12 while trying to also maintain my LeGato chops.   I'm looking forward to playing with the DM48 which should open up a whole world of tuning possibilities including "DoubleChrom" and more. 

My Doublechrom LeGato experiment was less than optimal.   Turns out the LeGato has so many built in wholetone (side to side) trills,  that having an extra button to raise things a whole step wasn't very useful.   With the DM48 I'll be able to experiment with other intervals - minor 3rd, 4th, etc.   

Also the DM48 will make it easy to go above or below the range of a standard LeGato harp or to change keys on the fly.   Can't wait!

jazmaan

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #356 on: December 09, 2017, 05:42:45 PM »
And Overblow.Com is down again.  :-X  It's been down for about a week this time.  :'(   Anyway,  I have to hand it to OldStudent (Roger Myerson)  he's been talking about Pentabender tuning in this thread since 2014!   And now I see he was recommending a variant called PentaBOPPER as being the ultimate Pentatonic tuning!   Has anyone tried that yet?   

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #357 on: October 26, 2022, 12:14:27 AM »
I have not tried the variation Jazmaan mentions.
I have spent quite a bit of time with the PentaBender, and recently started reacquainting myself with Fourkey.
And a fellow has become interested in the LeGato, I sent him some samples and he is having me create an instrument for him. The one I sent him is a 260, only two octaves.
Overblow.com is back up, here is link for the tuning in question.
https://overblow.com/?menuid=26&type=chrom#

Online Scotty

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #358 on: October 26, 2022, 01:26:53 AM »
Gnarly - it took FIVE years to get the site up again? lolol.....just kidding. I'm assuming (haven't looked) that it was
restored long before this. ;)

scotty

Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: The "LeGato" Tuning
« Reply #359 on: October 26, 2022, 08:33:59 AM »
It DID take a long time—I haven’t been using it, but I AM going to refer my customer to employ it.