Author Topic: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS  (Read 47328 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gnarly He Man

  • AKA Gary
  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,259
  • Chroma means color
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2011, 04:08:57 PM »
I'm not always sure when I push the slide either blowing or drawing whether I' ll get the note that's in my head, especially because of the built in redundant"Cs" which change the air direction. 
Which is why I recommend bebop tuning.
No change in air direction, all draw notes are higher than blow notes.
You also get a Bb "given", a bonus for playing in flat (or extremely sharp) keys.
And of course, no C notes on adjacent blow holes.
Gary

Offline henrymouni

  • PRESIDENT'S CLUB
  • MasterMeister
  • *
  • Posts: 4,164
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2011, 05:37:10 PM »
Thank you Henry,
This is precisely why I joined the forum community recently.  I am an ear player, and decided to dust off my old Hohner 270 and learn the other keys.  It helps to see the layout as a relationship, even though I don't read as I play.  My mouth's "memory muscles" are getting a workout, and I stumble a lot because I'm not always sure when I push the slide either blowing or drawing whether I' ll get the note that's in my head, especially because of the built in redundant"Cs" which change the air direction.  I know it takes hundreds of times playing each scale, as well as taking familiar tunes through their key paces.  If you have any other "ear player hints" for getting more key fluency I would love to hear them.  Doug P (from the woodshed)

Warm welcome Doug! ;)
I can only go by my own experience and agree that the constant repetition of playing the Major and Natural Minor
keys sets the patterns in your head.
I am an ear player and I think that playing the scales helped in this area also.
It improved my 'ear', but I am a long way from playing tunes in all keys by ear.
Playing different tunes, from music or tabs, in different keys helps also.
It takes time, but with your musical experience, it should be easier and quicker! ;)
I have small harps too, and they are solo tuned in the different keys.
The problem with playing by ear is  you do not think about the notes you are playing.
Well I don't. :D
When I play scales from memory I think of the different sound pattern each scale has,
almost like a tune in itself.
It is hard to explain, as is ear playing itself. It just happens.
There is not real substitute for time I suppose.
When I hear a tune I do not know what key it is in but I can sing along with it.
Trying to do the same with my harmonica takes a bit of trial and error,
but I hope one day to just pick it up and play straight away. Dream on!! ::)
If you have a look in the 'Chromatic tab' section you will see tunes in many different keys.
Some keys are a bit of a pain, but most are OK.
With the small harp, you would have them in the different keys, which is great!! ;D
You will have no trouble Doug!! ;)




Henry. :) :) :)

Doug P

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2011, 06:01:05 PM »
Gary,
Thanks.  I don't know about Bebop tuning.  Where can I hear or see the layout to see what the difference is?  I'll do a search for it.   Also, thanks to Henry.  I don't know if you people do this, but I seem to have my chrome with me all the time I'm logged in, and as I trip around these threads, I often pick it up and test whatever notes or hints pop into my mind.  Wonderful way to spend this Sunday afternoon.  Doug P

Offline Gnarly He Man

  • AKA Gary
  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,259
  • Chroma means color
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2011, 06:20:38 PM »

Online wolfman

  • HELPER
  • MasterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,532
  • If you have no "slick", you stick.
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2011, 06:36:23 PM »


  No UFO'S,Henry.
Have seen Allians. :D ;D

   Roman
PS I am one ;D

Offline henrymouni

  • PRESIDENT'S CLUB
  • MasterMeister
  • *
  • Posts: 4,164
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2011, 02:30:54 AM »


  No UFO'S,Henry.
Have seen Allians. :D ;D

   Roman
PS I am one ;D


Romulan?

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Romulan


Henry. :) :) :)

Online wolfman

  • HELPER
  • MasterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,532
  • If you have no "slick", you stick.
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2011, 10:09:33 AM »


   Very clever Henry, ;D but close.No i'm a croatian :D,from the Roman Empire. ;D

Offline henrymouni

  • PRESIDENT'S CLUB
  • MasterMeister
  • *
  • Posts: 4,164
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2011, 10:39:26 AM »


   Very clever Henry, ;D but close.No i'm a croatian :D,from the Roman Empire. ;D

That is close enough!!

Take care of yourself,

Henry. :) :) :)

Bluesy

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2011, 11:41:36 AM »
The very sight of written music seems to spook ear-players, and I think it is that rather then the actual "difficulty" of learning it that deters players from learning to read music. They seem to give up before they even try, thinking, I guess, that it is so difficult and beyond them that they shouldn't even try.
In actual fact, for harmonica players, it is so much easier than struggling with guessing for the rest of our lives that I wonder why more people don't go for it.
The treble staff - which is essentially the only one that harp players have to deal with - has five lousy lines and four spaces. Plus two or three ledger lines above and below the staff. (WOW!)
Can you drive a car? Read the Wall Street Journal? Enjoy a novel? If so, you can learn to read music in about two days, so there can be no excuses about "being too busy", or "not wanting to waste time when I could be playing the harmonica", or "I'm too old now, anyway". Excuses like those are just that.
Do you know the names of the notes on the harmonica holes?
Here's what to do.
Hold your beloved harmonica in your hand, get out the jazz sheet for a simple song that you love and know the lyrics of, (jazz sheets have the melody line, the chord symbols and hopefully the lyrics) and while looking at where the notes on the melody line are going in relation to the lyrics, slowly sing the melody. After it seems to make sense - "Summer time, when the living is easy . . . ", try the same notes on your axe, studying the melody line and trying to relate it to the holes you're playing. Okay, I know, you already know the song so you won't actually be reading it. But you can analyze that relationship, can't you?
I'm not asking you to play "Flight of the Bumblebee", after all. After a day or two I'm betting that you will be able to pick up a ballad you don't know and read your way through it on the harmonica.

It is well known in jazz that Chet Baker was a poor reader. The story goes that he and Jerry Mulligan were preparing to record something, and Chet complained that he didn't know the chords.
Mulligan said, "You know the chords very well - you just don't know their names!"

I'm suggesting that you connect what you already know with a line of written music, repeated until you see the relationship between the notes on the staff with the holes on your axe and you will be on your way to a richer, fuller musical life.

God bless!

Tom/bluesy



triggerfinger

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2011, 03:29:21 PM »

The very sight of written music seems to spook ear-players, and I think it is that rather then the actual "difficulty" of learning it that deters players from learning to read music. They seem to give up before they even try, thinking, I guess, that it is so difficult and beyond them that they shouldn't even try.


Learning to read well is by no means a skill that is "beyond me". Learning to read well is just not high on my musical priorities list and for good reasons. When I have acquired all the other musical harmonica skills that I want then I will learn to read better.

rusty

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2011, 07:59:56 AM »
I learned to read music as an adult after years of playing by ear. IMO it is a coordination thing for me between the left and right brain :o. I may never be totally fluent as those that learned young (sight reading still sucks) but I can say reading music opened up a whole world to me. New styles, playing with others in much more intricate ways, understanding theory, etc. I would recommend that all non music readers learn and all music readers learn to play by ear. It has greatly improved my playing both in a technical way and a musical way to learn to read. There are many great apps available now that make learning easy. On my IPhone I have iReadmusic, Musicopoulos (reading and theory), Music Theory Pro (includes ear training!) as well as iReal b, GarageBand, Metronome and Cleartune (for tuning but helpful in learning what note that particular hole sounds) This is great if you like me buy a chord harmonica and need to figure out the "map" :P. Basically I can give myself a lesson whenever and wherever I am.

Bluesy

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2011, 12:38:50 PM »
On this wonderful, beautiful day-after-Christmas, I will pass along the best advice I ever heard for people who say they "suck" at something, in this instance reading music, and that is the advice I heard someone receive who was trying to learn how to ride a unicycle; "Do it more."
Really complicated, eh?

Merry Christmas!
Happy Chanakkuh!
Happy New Year!
(Did I miss any?)

Tom/

Offline Jimmy Halfnote

  • MonsterMeister
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,253
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2011, 05:06:28 PM »
That is a throw away cliche Tom, that boils down to meaning nothing, the same applies to mending and tuning a harmonica, or playing it really well, ' just do it more often'. There has to be a 'will' to do it, that is the stumbling block, plus the TIME. I would not underestimate how long it would take, nor the commitment, to go from being a non reader, to an excellent reader , making it sound like falling off a log is not the encouragement it may seem. There is no point in being a bad reader (like me), it is an exact science, and in my opinion exacting, it can be a strain for those with waning eyesight, and over the centuries has accumulated many   styles, abbreviations and 'new' methods.The history alone is a study.
     Some folks may be just as content and happy , spending their precious time PLAYING. Good luck to everybody.
                                                                          jh.

rusty

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2011, 10:05:24 AM »
I know from my own efforts how much effort it takes. I suggest that being an excellent reader is not needed to reap benefits from reading. I was 40 years old, needed to get glasses just for reading music. In my case reading and playing well at the same time was an issue that needed time to resolve. Even then i could quickly learn new pieces. That said Paul McCartney who does not read has said he has no interest in learning. We all have different goals and time is limited.

Offline henrymouni

  • PRESIDENT'S CLUB
  • MasterMeister
  • *
  • Posts: 4,164
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2011, 12:18:16 PM »
I was visiting my sister on Boxing day, and met a lovely music teacher, who teaches at a school and plays violin with an orchestra, from time to time.
She also plays piano and recorder.
She learnt to read music as a child and it is second nature for her to play and read with ease.
However, she finds it very difficult to play by ear and to improvise, and believes it is because she/her mind is too reliant on sheet music.
You would have thought that, as she is steeped in music, she would be a great ear player. Not so!
She can't get her head around jazz!! :D


Henry. :) :) :)


Offline Grizzly

  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,356
  • aka Tom
    • Transcriptions
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2011, 01:04:33 PM »
I read with ease, play by ear, but don't improvise very well. We learn at different levels and accomplishments, having to do with talent and exposure.

Tom
working on my second 10,000!

rusty

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2011, 07:44:47 PM »
Up intill the 19th century improvising was part of *classical music. Still done in some circles of pipe organ players. It is wonderful to listen to if done well. The violinist Andrew Maze is well known for his current "Baroque" improvisations. Bach was a well known improviser (he's dead now BTW)

*classical in the general meaning

Any possibility of getting tabs for arpeggios?
could be helpful for lots of non readers
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 02:24:42 PM by rusty »

Bluesy

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2012, 10:29:31 AM »
That is a throw away cliche Tom, that boils down to meaning nothing, the same applies to mending and tuning a harmonica, or playing it really well, ' just do it more often'. There has to be a 'will' to do it, that is the stumbling block, plus the TIME. I would not underestimate how long it would take, nor the commitment, to go from being a non reader, to an excellent reader , making it sound like falling off a log is not the encouragement it may seem. There is no point in being a bad reader (like me), it is an exact science, and in my opinion exacting, it can be a strain for those with waning eyesight, and over the centuries has accumulated many   styles, abbreviations and 'new' methods.The history alone is a study.
     Some folks may be just as content and happy , spending their precious time PLAYING. Good luck to everybody.
                                                                          jh.
I noticed that henrymouni added a post to this thread today, April 25th, 2012, so I think I'll talk to my friend Jimmy.
You're right, Jimmy. Some things will never respond to "do it more", but some things are not everything. And it surely doesn't "boil down to meaning nothing"! Per esempio, if they sat you down in the pilot's seat on the space shuttle and said, "Do it until you're good at it!", I don't think you'd return from your first lift-off.  In the music-reading endeavor too, I am not suggesting that you try to learn to read Scriaben or Czerny. All most of us will be reading is pop tunes - probably the easiest segment of the musical universe. And I'm not suggesting that we give up everything else to do it - what's wrong with devoting ten or fifteen minutes a day to going over the sheet music of that very tune you're working on by ear?
Being content and happy is fine, but lucky for mankind, man is not designed nor destined to spend his life chewing his cud. Responding to challenge makes our time here all the more precious. All the more exciting. All the more vital.
Just fifteen minutes, Jimmy.
"Summertime . . . . when the livin' is easeeee . . . ."  E, C, E . . . . D, C, D, E, C, A, Eeeee.
You'll sleep better.

Best, as always,

Tom/

Offline Jimmy Halfnote

  • MonsterMeister
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,253
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2012, 12:53:09 PM »
.You cunning man Tom of the Bluesy, you guessed i was in Spain working with an eight inch net-book /dodgy wi-fi, and disadvantaged, ( and sleepless). Sound stuff , worth reading , touche .

                                                                                                                jh.

Offline Gnarly He Man

  • AKA Gary
  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,259
  • Chroma means color
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2012, 02:10:46 PM »
Transcribing (as Henry has done) is the best thing for reading.
Staff beats tab, but tab has some really advantages for some things.

Bluesy

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2012, 02:44:16 PM »
Transcribing (as Henry has done) is the best thing for reading.
Staff beats tab, but tab has some really advantages for some things.
Why does everything have to be a competition?

Offline Gnarly He Man

  • AKA Gary
  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,259
  • Chroma means color
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2012, 01:59:54 AM »
In this case, because staff has rhythm notation--in other cases, because we are human.
I am competing with myself--I'm starting to get an edge on me . . .

Offline henrymouni

  • PRESIDENT'S CLUB
  • MasterMeister
  • *
  • Posts: 4,164
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2013, 11:10:56 AM »
Move to the top of the page.

Offline smojoe

  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,347
  • virgo
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2013, 12:41:53 PM »

Here's the deal Doug.
You can be an ear player and still not have to read music..per se, BUT it is imperative that you know the addresses of the notes.

Let's first of all establish that there IS only one octave. Everything else is a duplication OF that octave. Let's say you have a 12 hole
instrument. The octaves are: Parents, Children, & Grandchildren. Using seniority as a guide and since they appear FIRST on the harmonica,
theparents are first. (In the case of a 16 hole model, the GRANDparents are first.

Anyway, back to the parents. There are FOUR holes. All you need to know are where these parents live IN these 4 holes. Sooo, start with C and do a scale
(by ear) Do it again, do it again. Do it 3 times. Then move to the children, do them once, do them twice. Then move to the grandchildren, do them once.

Why more series on the first octave? Because you will spend most of your time in the parents octave. So give them more play time. NOW do a complete scale. Then go back to square one. Do this one day. The next time you play, do the E scale (by ear). Follow the same regimen as you did for C.

Next time you play, do G scale and repeat the foregoing. You now have the blow scales. Then go on to DRAW D, F, A, and (if you're nasty) try B. This will complete your ONE octave practice on the C scale. Now do the same thing with the C# (Db) plates. As I have harped (pun unintended), for many years, you have to know where the notes are.

Hunting and pecking to get the notes is not conducive to good form and will lead to bad habits and continuous mistakes. I know because I only played by ear for many years. You only need to know ONE octave. Every other octave is just a repetition.

And, when working with tabs, by the time you have to factor in the NUMBER of the hole, the DIRECTION of the breath, and the POSITION of the slide..that's THREE things. You may as well learn the notes, and the lines or spaces they sit in/on. That's TWO things.  But in conclusion, and there is never a conclusion in playing harmonica, you HAVE to have a frame of reference. So I repeat...Learn ONE octave...everything else is just 'another' repeat.

smokey-joe

Offline Mottiti

  • HELPER
  • Chrome-Meister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,354
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2013, 12:48:10 PM »
Thank you Smokey

Glad to see you posting again.


Tim

Addendum:
In the last 3 months I learned myself to read music.
(I started with tabs for new songs. )
Then I did endless exercises on notation. The hardest part was actually getting used to cdefgab instead of do re mi fa sol la si do.

I took aebersold books, tunes frome flutetunes. I wrote the names under it.

After I wrote the hole/draw or blow /slide in or out under.

Last step is immediatly writing down the right hole number etc.

This might seem a long way. But it enabled me to start from something i know.
Still I have a long way to go. I'm a very slow postman so far.
But I was able to play 2 ( yes only 2) songs without ever hearing them before.

Tim
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 01:01:47 PM by Mottiti »

Offline henrymouni

  • PRESIDENT'S CLUB
  • MasterMeister
  • *
  • Posts: 4,164
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2013, 10:26:01 AM »
Move to the top of the page.

Hobo

  • Guest
Baby steps needed with TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2013, 05:41:24 PM »
How does it work?
Easy Peasy.
If I have tabbed in 'C' and you want to transpose to 'G'=
If the first note is 'E'/2 blow then slide to 'G', which is next door and you see the note is
'B' or 4 draw, on your 'C' Chromatic.
You have just transposed from 'C' to 'G'.
If there is ANYTHING that is not clear PLEASE ask.
Henry. :) :) :)
I've been looking at this chart for the last several days and I need some help with it. As a test, I took the first several measures of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in the Key of C and transposed it to the Key of G... and it worked. Painful, for me a beginner, but it worked. So then I thought as a further test, I'd take the first 3 notes of "Misty" that's been tabbed in the Key of Bb and move it to C.... just as a test, not that I'd play it in that key – I'm throughly lost. I know I'm a beginner... but, sure would like to use this chart if I needed.

The first three notes in the tab for Misty in Bb are: Look (-6)...at (-5)...me (-3)
Using this chart, I'm totally lost how to transpose those notes into another key... can someone walk me through with some very simple baby steps – not the whole tune, just the first 3 notes to get the idea??


Hobo

  • Guest
Re: TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2013, 05:45:52 PM »
But in conclusion, and there is never a conclusion in playing harmonica, you HAVE to have a frame of reference. So I repeat...Learn ONE octave...everything else is just 'another' repeat.
smokey-joe

Thanks for making it seem less steep of a climb. I love that logical approach!

Offline henrymouni

  • PRESIDENT'S CLUB
  • MasterMeister
  • *
  • Posts: 4,164
Re: Baby steps needed with TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2013, 06:55:15 PM »
How does it work?
Easy Peasy.
If I have tabbed in 'C' and you want to transpose to 'G'=
If the first note is 'E'/2 blow then slide to 'G', which is next door and you see the note is
'B' or 4 draw, on your 'C' Chromatic.
You have just transposed from 'C' to 'G'.
If there is ANYTHING that is not clear PLEASE ask.
Henry. :) :) :)
I've been looking at this chart for the last several days and I need some help with it. As a test, I took the first several measures of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in the Key of C and transposed it to the Key of G... and it worked. Painful, for me a beginner, but it worked. So then I thought as a further test, I'd take the first 3 notes of "Misty" that's been tabbed in the Key of Bb and move it to C.... just as a test, not that I'd play it in that key – I'm throughly lost. I know I'm a beginner... but, sure would like to use this chart if I needed.

The first three notes in the tab for Misty in Bb are: Look (-6)...at (-5)...me (-3)
Using this chart, I'm totally lost how to transpose those notes into another key... can someone walk me through with some very simple baby steps – not the whole tune, just the first 3 notes to get the idea??

If the first note in 'Bb' is 'F' = -6, then you travel horizontally left to 'Eb' you get 'Bb' = -7*
The second note is  'D' = -5, then in 'Eb' you get 'G' = 7.
The third note is 'A' = -3, then you get 'D' = -5.
So you have  'Look  -7* at  7   me  -5.
 If you move horizontally to 'Ab'    you get   -5*   5     3.
 And so on across to 'C' =  7     6   -4.
I hope that is clear Hobo?
If you look at the left hand column = 'C' that shows how your 'C' Chromatic is tuned.
All the other keys show how it is tuned in that key.
i.e. if you bought yourself a Chromatic in the key of say 'A' your first blow note would be 'A' and so on.
Looking at 'C' column again hole 1 is C blow D draw.
Hole 1 is the same as holes 5 & 9.
Hole 2      "        "         "     6 & 10.
Hole 3      "        "         "     7 & 11
Hole  4     "        "         "     8 & 12
Down to hole 5 which is the same as 1  &  9.

Clear as mud?? ;D 


Henry. :) :) :)

Hobo

  • Guest
Re: Baby steps needed with TRANSPOSITION Chart - MAJOR KEYS
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2013, 02:43:04 PM »

Clear as mud?? ;D 

Henry. :) :) :)

Thanks Henry, for the further explanation... I'll need to digest this further to make it clear in my thick head :)