Author Topic: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?  (Read 23931 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

triggerfinger

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2010, 02:14:46 PM »
Hi John

Those who intend to imitate the human voice?

It sounds like you may be referring to my criteria. If so then I need to correct what you are implying. I didn't write that the tuning should imitate the human voice. The tuning alone could not accomplish that. I wrote that the tuning should, as closely as possible, resemble the tuning of the human voice. I would like to have greater ability to bend on the slide chromatic harp but that is concern separate from the tuning and is a problem for all tunings.

Offline Grizzly

  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,374
  • aka Tom
    • Transcriptions
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2010, 02:45:49 PM »
Human voices are "tuned"? Mine isn't. I can sing in tune (or not). But that's a function of ear, training and talent. No one (to my knowledge) has reached down my throat to "improve" my vocal folds. Or rearrange my nasal cavities.

If you're looking for instruments that can emulate the flexibility of the human voice, try a violin. Or trombone. Or theramin.

Wanna find a different word besides tuning to describe what you're after?

Tom
working on my second 10,000!

triggerfinger

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2010, 03:21:13 PM »
Hi Tom

Human voices are "tuned"?

Sure. Increasing the tension in one's laryngeal folds increases the pitch. In the case of the human voice the the tuning is not discrete as with the harmonic, piano or guitar but is instead continuous as with the violin or trombone.

Whether a particular voice is tuned well, as with any particular guitar or violin, is an independent question.

I think there are two types of tunings in music. Absolute: Setting a reference pitch. Relative: Setting pitches generated by an instrument relative to the reference pitch.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 03:31:26 PM by triggerfinger »

Offline Grizzly

  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,374
  • aka Tom
    • Transcriptions
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2010, 04:12:27 PM »
We're going to have to agree to disagree on terminology. Other than saying something about the tuning of the voice, everything else you said is spot on.

I can match pitch, singing, whether it's to an external (relative) or internal (absolute) source. I can sing in tune or out of tune with others around me. What I can't do, mechanically, is "tune" my voice by doing what any instrumentalist would to get in tune: change string length, pull out or push in a slide, arrange my hands on a theramin. "Tuning" my voice isn't part of my musical lexicon.

Emulating a vocal flexibility on harmonica, as you've said, doesn't depend on any specific tuning; rather, on the skill of the player. There can be a connectedness between breath directions that, while not any kind of slur or smear, can be very smooth, with no apparent space between notes. Fingering up the frets of a guitar, sequential notes on harpsichord or organ, can indeed be played expressively and musically.

Same-breath sequences on harmonica, while highly desirable to some people, aren't all that important to others. That translates to differing tuning regimens. Diminished tuning, with all its enharmonics, or LeGato, may provide the most flexibility in breath direction; but the expressiveness and musical sense comes from the player. We can agree on that.

Tom

working on my second 10,000!

Offline John Broecker

  • (Time-traveller)
  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,673
  • Vintage 2K? Swan 1456 & JB
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2010, 06:13:05 PM »
Hello, Jazmaan and Gnarly.

Gnarly: Again, this is my ignorance of terms speaking. My apologies. I know nothing about overblows, except that I can't play one, that is, until a few days ago, on my circular diatonic harp. I've been trying to do that for years, on my Richter diatonics.

To me, an "overblow" or "overdraw" is a sharped (raised) pitch of a harmonica reed, done on a diatonic or slide chromatic harmonica by a changing of tongue position and mouth shape, not using the slide button.

To me, a bent note is a flatted (lowered) pitch of a harmonica reed, done on a diatonic or slide chromatic harmonica by a changing of tongue position and mouthshape, not using the slide button.

Jazmaan: Your observation that chords wanted on a circular harp may be in a position not easily playable is correct, as far as I know. I've tried a few simple pop tunes with the circular diatonic and slide chromatic, and the results at this time seem to agree with your observation.

But, the circular harps have so many chords available everywhere on the harp, that finding a substitute chord should be as easy as moving over one hole in either direction.

As a chord-melody harp, I haven't seen any better arranged note placement. But, it doesn't have "all chords," only the chords that fit for a diatonic scale, through 13ths on each note of the scale. In that way, it's similar to a Chordominica II, but with many more chords.

My Seydel Chromatic Deluxe Baritone Circular is a prototype, and won't be lent out. Someday, I may get good at playing it.

John Broecker

« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 06:28:37 PM by John Broecker »
"Elton John is right up there with David Bowie."--Rick Harrison, "Pawn Stars" TV show, USA. Rick is discussing collectibles.

jazmaan

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2010, 08:33:37 PM »
I once attempted to design a diatonic harp capable of all the chords necessary for "I Got Rhythm" including the bridge chords.   I failed.   I haven't tried it with a slide chromatic.

LeGato tuning, is however, capable of playing the entire melody of "I Got Rhythm" in several keys without use of the slide (or conversely without changing breath direction.)  That's a pretty neat trick in my book, even if the accompanying chords aren't all there.  

If Chromatic Circular could pull off all the chords of "I Got Rhythm" in even just one key,  I'd be very interested.  But from your description,  I'd expect the bridge chords to be unavailable.

By the way,  how did the term "Circular" gain acceptance?  I always thought it was called "Spiral" tuning.

triggerfinger

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2010, 02:02:36 AM »
Hi Tom

We're going to have to agree to disagree on terminology. Other than saying something about the tuning of the voice, everything else you said is spot on.

Oh it's fine to disagree on terminology but please allow me to elaborate so that my terminology is clear.

The tuning of the augy harp (sharpy not slippy variety) is such that ascending through the sequence: blow slide + out, blow + slide in, draw + slide out, draw + slide in, for each hole produces a monotonically increasing pitch throughout the entire range of the instrument. That pitch increases discretely by a half step each step through the sequence. To ascend (or descend) through this sequence requires a tuple of actions (hole movement, breath direction, slide position).

The tuning of the voice is such that ascending through a sequence of laryngeal fold tensions produces a monotonically increasing pitch throughout the range of the voice. That pitch unlike the harmonica can increase continuously. To ascend (or descend) through this sequence requires a single action (tension change).

It would nice if a practical chromatic harp could be designed that only uses one physical action to ascend (or descend) through the sequence of pitches, and making the tuning even more voice-like, but alas ...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 02:06:51 AM by triggerfinger »

roady43

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2010, 09:09:36 AM »
As the only "wind" instrument using CHANGE OF BREATH DIRECTION the harmonica is unique and singular among all other music instruments. Breath change is one of the main characteristics and therefore a challenge on ANY harmonica, if we like it or not. There is no tuning with a reasonable range that offers ALL 12 keys as blow or draw notes. But this would be the precondition for me...

Any person who never touched a (solo tuned) chromatic harmonica before and trying to play the very first time, will realize that the system is quite simple for the first 6 semitones in hole 1 and 2. AUGMENTED just continues as simple for the whole rest of the scale, no irregular change or jump has to be learned. That's with other words  what triggerfinger just described.

Considering all this made the decision for augmented quite easy for me...

roady43

Offline John Broecker

  • (Time-traveller)
  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,673
  • Vintage 2K? Swan 1456 & JB
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2010, 09:33:56 AM »
Hello, Jazmaan.

I can't guarantee that any specific altered tuning will do what you want it to do.

My circular chromatic was an experiment, to see if it could do what I wanted.

This topic section is about augmented tunings, of which I know next to nothing.

So, we'll keep the discussion of the circular note placement brief.

Mike Photis is credited with the developement of the basic spiral tuning (used on my version of the Seydel Baritone Circular). The German patent #9404910 was given to Laurentz Wiskott, in 1994.

The circular or spiral harps were first diatronic harps, then in 2007 on my Seydel Baritone slide chromatic, with Bob Coble's version about 6 months to a year after mine.

My application uses the original Photis note placement (Pat Missin's listing #6.1), and Bob's uses the same note placement as a Seydel G circular diatonic harp (Pat Missin's #6.3c).

As far as I know, the term, Zirkular, was first used on the German harmonicas. Later, the Americans called it spiral, then circular. There are 21 different variations under the section, TNGS006, of the circular note placenent or altered tuning at Pat Missin's website.

www.patmissin.com

As far as the chords to Gershwin's I Got Rhythm, I'll check my music collection for the tune, to see if the chords are available on the circular chromatic.

For me, designing a harmonica's note placement or altered tuning to work on only one tune is not desirable. When designing a note placement or altered tuning, I would think of a system that would work in many situations, not just one.

John Broecker

« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 09:42:04 AM by John Broecker »
"Elton John is right up there with David Bowie."--Rick Harrison, "Pawn Stars" TV show, USA. Rick is discussing collectibles.

Offline Grizzly

  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,374
  • aka Tom
    • Transcriptions
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2010, 09:55:19 AM »

It would nice if a practical chromatic harp could be designed that only uses one physical action to ascend (or descend) through the sequence of pitches, and making the tuning even more voice-like, but alas ...

Hey, there's always the Hohner Chromatica 263! Thirty-five notes, fully chromatic, same notes both blow and draw. Check it out!

http://www.hohnerusa.com/index.php?130

Tom

PS And no slide!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 09:57:30 AM by Grizzly »
working on my second 10,000!

jazmaan

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2010, 10:15:06 AM »

For me, designing a harmonica's note placement or altered tuning to work on only one tune is not desirable. When designing a note placement or altered tuning, I would think of a system that would work in many situations, not just one.

John Broecker



John,  "I Got Rhythm" underpins countless jazz tunes from "Anthropology" to "Meet the Flintstones".    Take a look at this Wikipedia page and you'll see why a harp that was optimized to play "Rhythm Changes" would be far more versatile than you might imagine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm_changes

Offline SlideMeister

  • Owner/Administrator
  • MonsterMeister
  • *
  • Posts: 27,008
  • A.J. Fedor ><((((º>
    • A.J.'s mini-site
Re: Chromaticas with augmented tuning?
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2010, 10:59:34 AM »
This thread is so convoluted I don't know where to move it.  :D  so I'll just complicate it further by asking the name of a real pro (with a youtube) who uses augmented tuning. (I'm guessing "augmente" is the Italian version?  :D) Aaanyway, forgive me, but until we see and hear examples of real pros using it, augmented tuning is never gunna go anywhere. While I happen to like it, (but it's too late in life to switch) there has to be some examples out there for it to ever get "legs" Nothing promotes something new like a pro using and making money with it. So, Whaddyagot?

SM
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 11:08:56 AM by A.J.Fedor »

jonkip

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2010, 11:11:12 AM »
Hi Tom

We're going to have to agree to disagree on terminology. Other than saying something about the tuning of the voice, everything else you said is spot on.



It would nice if a practical chromatic harp could be designed that only uses one physical action to ascend (or descend) through the sequence of pitches, and making the tuning even more voice-like, but alas ...

such luck!!
You've come close to discovering the perfect instrument for you http://www.kazoos.com/

after testing several of them, a couple of us used them for a season on the old TV show "Webster"... probably available for 99 cents an episode somewhere... American-made instruments, and they are perfectly in tune with the voice...no matter how out of tune it might be.... even Florence Foster Jenkins would have played kazoo perfectly in tune with her voice...

« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 11:18:37 AM by jonkip »

jazmaan

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmented tuning?
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2010, 11:56:59 AM »
This thread is so convoluted I don't know where to move it.  :D  so I'll just complicate it further by asking the name of a real pro (with a youtube) who uses augmented tuning. (I'm guessing "augmente" is the Italian version?  :D) Aaanyway, forgive me, but until we see and hear examples of real pros using it, augmented tuning is never gunna go anywhere. While I happen to like it, (but it's too late in life to switch) there has to be some examples out there for it to ever get "legs" Nothing promotes something new like a pro using and making money with it. So, Whaddyagot?

SM

Didn't you see the two Youtube links that Roady posted above to "El Choclo" and "Meditation" played on augmented.  I don't know if those were paying gigs but they were certainly played at a professional level.

triggerfinger

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2010, 04:12:27 PM »
Hi Jonkip

such luck!!
You've come close to discovering the perfect instrument for you http://www.kazoos.com/

LOL. Not to far from reality though. If I could get the harmonica sound and responsiveness out of a kazoo I would use it. And I would sound like the best harmonica player of all time because I, like most of us, have an enormous amount of musical ideas and phrases stored in our brains that would like to get out. But our voice is often mechanically inadequate for the job. The harmonic players biggest hurdle is trying to play those musical ideas on the harp. So why complicate clearing that formidable hurdle by using a tuning that is unnecessarily complex?

Offline SlideMeister

  • Owner/Administrator
  • MonsterMeister
  • *
  • Posts: 27,008
  • A.J. Fedor ><((((º>
    • A.J.'s mini-site
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2010, 06:05:20 PM »
Didn't you see the two Youtube links that Roady posted above to "El Choclo" and "Meditation" played on augmented.  I don't know if those were paying gigs but they were certainly played at a professional level.

Nope! Musta missed those. I'll go and snoop around in you tube and see what I can find.

Offline Grizzly

  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,374
  • aka Tom
    • Transcriptions
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2010, 06:06:34 PM »
Kazoos are limited to the range of the human voice. I have about two octaves. My harmonicas have as many as four octaves.

Tom
working on my second 10,000!

jonkip

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2010, 08:15:05 PM »
Kazoos are limited to the range of the human voice. I have about two octaves. My harmonicas have as many as four octaves.

Tom
OH, yeah, I wondered why the woman flute player had a higher range my kazoo than I did...

well, more or less, I wondered...

well, ok, I didn't wonder at all.

Offline John Broecker

  • (Time-traveller)
  • HELPER
  • MonsterMeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,673
  • Vintage 2K? Swan 1456 & JB
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #78 on: September 29, 2010, 09:15:51 AM »
Hello, Kazoonicas.

I always like the screwball stuff. This should probably be in the Banter section. But, somebody mentioned a kazoo here,
and this is one way combine a kazoo with a harmonica.

You can make a harmonica with a built-in kazoo. This article was published in the Trumpet Call, newsletter of the Harmonica Collectors International (HCI), April, 2002 issue.

THE KRAZY KAZOO HARMONICA
Harmonica and Kazoo Combined
in One Instrument (1930)

by H. Giffords

By combining a harmonica and a kazoo, it's possible to change instantly from one to the other, and get a wide range of tones above and below the regular harmonica scale, as well as a variety of trumpet and blue notes.

A ten-hole harmonica is used. The four center holes are drilled through the back. These holes are then closed with an improvised valve, made from a small spring ("Bulldog") paper clip.

A suitable kazoo is then mounted on the back of the harmonica with 2 small screws and nuts. The holes for kazoo mounting can be drilled through the 2nd and 9th holes on the harmonica.

If a plain kazoo is used, it can be made more ornamental by attaching 2 small aluminum sprinkling caps, like those for moistening clothes when ironing. They can be fastened to the kazoo with "cold" liquid solder.

There has to be a hole in the back of the kazoo, to vent air when the center harmonica holes are used. This hole is closed with a finger when the kazoo is used.

It's necessary to have a small hole in one end of the kazoo. It's hidden by one of the aluminum caps. As an ornament, the writer puts a World's Fair souvenir brooch over the mouth of the kazoo.

The harmonica is played in the usual way. When the kazoo effect is desired, the valve is pressed, opening the four center holes. The player can hum into the kazoo without having harmonica reed vibrations.



« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 09:24:57 AM by John Broecker »
"Elton John is right up there with David Bowie."--Rick Harrison, "Pawn Stars" TV show, USA. Rick is discussing collectibles.

thubab2

  • Guest
Re: Chromaticas with augmente tuning?
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2010, 02:02:56 AM »
Nothing to worry about, "Everything is difficult start" that!
Good luck!
--------
Free grant money
travel reports