Author Topic: TONE  (Read 3471 times)

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Offline SlideMeister

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TONE
« on: March 19, 2022, 11:59:02 PM »
I just put this on the main site, but since a lot of you folks seldom (if ever ::)) get over there, I thought I'd share it here as well. :)
 
I know folks who've been playing for decades, and although their speed and articulation have improved immensely, their sound/tone is pretty much the same as when they started playing. Harking back to my railroad days, (I love harking back to my railroad days. :))  I remember handing my 64 to another engineer and told him to try it. He stuck the thing in his face and played a few notes. It totally blew my mind. This guy had no idea what he was doing but he had a tone I could only dream about. I remember trying to talk him in to playing the harmonica, but he couldn't care less. So, natural good tone? Some got it; some (most, actually) don't got it.  AND more importantly, will probably never have it, unless they pursue it. Tone is its own animal. It doesn't just jump into your playing one day and say: "Hey, I'm here!" but rather, is illusive.

I know players that know every scale, forwards, backwards and sideways, with speed and articulation that's off the charts, with jazz licks to die for, but their tone is mediocre at best. What's up with that? I'm gunna take a flying' guess here and say: "They just don't want it bad enough." I know I do, and that's why I never quit working on it. Perfect example: Blues traveler. "Two hundred MPH and tone like a Canadian Whooping Crane - IMPO)

If we really want something, NOTHING ever keeps us from pursuing it. ("Better better best, never let it rest, yada yada yada) We all know the rhyme and we also know it's true, don't we? Man will always either give up, get what he wants, or die trying.

Except for good tone, all that other stuff, by the way, DOES just kinda show up with practice. Unless you're born with it, I believe tone, and the pursuit thereof requires just that: Pursuit.

There are more variations to how and where air and sound moves around in our mouths, heads, throat and lungs than most folks want to realize. Learning and developing these variations is "the road," not "the trick" to better tone.  I say that because it's a process, and it'll get probably better as long as you pursue it.

"Can someone help me with my tone?" Yes, in a limited way. Since it's such a personal thing, it's difficult for a teacher/coach to get inside your head and explain everything perfectly, but he/she can usually help you "get leg up" by sharing some of the dynamics.There's a lot to learn and it's all fun! :o)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2022, 12:06:40 AM by A.J. Fedor »

Offline Gene Oh

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Re: TONE
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2022, 12:48:31 AM »
I like what you have said: "Tone is its own animal".  Isn't like the tone of your own voice? Each one has his/her unique voice colour.
Gene

Offline John Broecker

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Re: TONE
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2022, 01:19:09 AM »
Tone can be taught. But, only
if your teacher has it, or knows
how to get it.

Here's how to develop a great tone
Practice this EVERY DAY:

Practice on a single reed, long, longer
and longest tones. One reed at a time,
until it's perfect, or until you can't stand
it any longer. A solid tone is the goal.

Practice on only one reed per day, not all
reeds, until it's perfect.

Then, go to another reed, repeat, until
the entire range is practiced to perfection.
All blow reeds, all draw reeds, slide out,
and slide in. This won't be an overnight
success, it takes a long time to develop.


In college, my trumpet teacher said,
don't worry about scales, arpeggios, etc.
Concentrate your efforts on developing
a great tone.


To this day I've followed his advice,
applied to harmonica playing. The
best part of my playing is the tone.

When you can clearly play all of the
reeds on your harmonica effortlessly,
at the same volume level, you'll have
a great tone.

I don't have technical mastery, but
listeners have told me that I sound
like a professional harp player.

Another piece of advice, from jazz-
dixieland player Jelly Roll Morton.
He said, in an interview:

Play easy tunes, and play them well.

I've tried to make those 2 rules fit my
style and limits of harp playing.

So far, nobody has told me to shut
up when I play the harmonica.

Best Regards, Play Harmonica

JB




« Last Edit: March 20, 2022, 02:00:42 AM by John Broecker »
Bob Uecker, Catcher, Announcer, USA Baseball: "The best way to catch a knuckleball is to wait for it to stop rolling on the ground, then pick it up."

Offline Gatty1010

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Re: TONE
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2022, 01:49:36 AM »
I think something that many harmonica players have faced is lack of good harmonica instructors in the early days of self learning. Today there are many good instructors and they start from the basics.

Tone is one's own signature that a player develops within the limitations of the instrument. However some simple things like controlling the amount of air in each blow and draw, cupping style, tailing off notes, attack on some notes combined with how notes are to be taken (like staccato or legato), subtle vibratos ... and many more aspects... they all form together into a typical signature of any player depending who is doing what while playing..

Not sure if I am making any sense....it isn't really very easy to explain as this instrument goes inside our mouth.... but these factors makes for the same tune being played so differently by different players.
Cheers
Gatty :)

Offline Ed McCullough

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Re: TONE
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2022, 05:23:03 AM »
35 years ago I taught classes of about 8 people at a time. I taught them how to play the standard 10 hole diatonic harmonicas. I taught 'em to read music. Basic reading of music is dirt simple. Kindergarten kids can read simple music.

Anyhow . . .

A man with huge hands walked in one day. His hands would give him capability of having GREAT Tone, because he could wrap his hands around the harmonica and make a BIG box around the harmonica.  I always taught students to wrap hands around harmonica, so there were fewest possible openings. I didn't want to be able to see the harmonicas when students had hrmonicas in their mouths.  That makes a warm, dark sound. You get another sound when you remove one hand and open the back of he harmonica to the outside air. Thereforo, you can make two different tones by holding the harmonica differently.

You can do something similar witih chromatic harmonicas.  When I see people playing chromatic harmonicas while holding them with one hand at each end, I know they aren't listening to tone, and I know they will only have one tone. BORING. I've seen videos of our star performers on the Saturday evenig stage of SPAH conventions playing with one hand on ech end of the harmonica. That is the holding-a-cheese-sandwich hand style., which hugely limits the chance to give variations of tone. Some of our star performers, that we all admirie, miss the opportunity for great tone.

If you hold a microphone as you play a chromaic harmonica, you have little chance to vary hour hand positions. How can hey get variations of tone?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2022, 06:12:18 AM by Ed McCullough »

Offline SlimHeilpern

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Re: TONE
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2022, 09:36:56 AM »
...
When I see people playing chromatic harmonicas while holding them with one hand at each end, I know they aren't listening to tone, and I know they will only have one tone. BORING.
...

With all due respect, Ed, to this I say: harrumph! :-)

And I'm saying this as someone who does generally cup or use a substitute for hands to cup the instrument. I do like the cupped tone.

However, one of the best chromatic tones in the business (to my ears) is Stevie Wonder, such a sweet sounding tone and never boring, very difficult to copy -- and he doesn't cup.

Larry Adler cupped, but that was only one part of his unique tone.

Variations in tone don't depend solely on cupping, although cupping will vary the tone. Other things that influence tone are how you breath, oral cavity size (which you can change dynamically), etc...

- Slim
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Offline Ed McCullough

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Re: TONE
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2022, 12:37:21 PM »
Slim:   There are other factors, but I wrote about my biggest thought

Offline Jimmy Halfnote

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Re: TONE
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2022, 01:40:12 PM »
I don't listen to a great deal of harmonica music, the lack of dynamics is one reason,often it is like a report being read as opposed to a story, of course articulation comes into the equation of which dynamics is a big factor. I am mentioning dynamics because in my opinion the tone has to stand up to them, so many players i hear seem afraid to let go..this is perhaps fear..but of what ? The harmonica may fall to pieces ? Maybe, but i think it has a lot to do with the tone breaking down when pressure is applied..the harmonica model is also a factor, some models fold when asked to step up.
                  A recent post by Laina showed a clip of Rolabo Lin playing Shosty's famous second waltz..so few replied to such an obvious lesson it was disheartening.

                                                                  jh.

Offline kvanbael

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Re: TONE
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2022, 06:21:07 PM »
It is such a fascinating and elusive subject and although I would rate my own tone mediocre at best, yet i do want to share this:

The last few years i came to realize that good tone is mostly good control. You don’t need to do something new or different... you just need do things darn consistent. When you can play a simple melody where no note sticks out for being louder or harsher (unintended), and you can play soft long notes without any quirks in the beginning or end, then you already sound twice as nice. That control.

Another part of tone is anatomy. Our instrument is 20% metal, plastic & wood and 80% meat and bones. Our bodies are all different and therefor we will never sound exactly the same. Accept your unique voice, even if you sometimes like some elses more.


Offline The Lone Harper

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Re: TONE
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2022, 08:44:15 PM »
Here is the late great Pete Pedersen discussing tone at the WHF on the Isle of Jersey in 1987.

"Hi ho, Silver Concerto! Away!"

Offline Gatty1010

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Re: TONE
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2022, 11:21:41 PM »
Here is the late great Pete Pedersen discussing tone at the WHF on the Isle of Jersey in 1987.

Exactly... ;D
Cheers
Gatty :)

Offline Leatherman

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Re: TONE
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2022, 12:02:45 AM »
Inspired by Jimmy’s comment re Rolabo Lin, I checked him out on YouTube and the man is fantastic.  Worth looking up. 

Offline SlideMeister

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Re: TONE
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2022, 01:14:38 AM »
Lately, my tone is all over the place. (on purpose)  Now that I have more control over it, I've found myself changing it a few times during a piece to add variety to the number. Kinda like changing instruments or effects with a pedal. Go from shallow, to deep, to nasal to something else. Kinda concerned though; I'm getting a new upper partial in a couple weeks and I have no idea what effect (if any) it's gunna have on what I sound like. :-\ We'll see.

Offline brorat

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Re: TONE
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2022, 08:58:33 AM »
Lately, my tone is all over the place. (on purpose)  Now that I have more control over it, I've found myself changing it a few times during a piece to add variety to the number. Kinda like changing instruments or effects with a pedal. Go from shallow, to deep, to nasal to something else. Kinda concerned though; I'm getting a new upper partial in a couple weeks and I have no idea what effect (if any) it's gunna have on what I sound like. :-\ We'll see.

It's Monday.  Ring a bell?
I'm guessing your tone is gonna REALLY change if you don't get off this board and spend the day with B ;)
“Just here to harp on chromatics!”

Offline Leatherman

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Re: TONE
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2022, 08:57:30 PM »
AJ……I hope you and Barb had a Chromantic day. 

Offline SlideMeister

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Re: TONE
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2022, 11:05:18 PM »
Lately, my tone is all over the place. (on purpose)  Now that I have more control over it, I've found myself changing it a few times during a piece to add variety to the number. Kinda like changing instruments or effects with a pedal. Go from shallow, to deep, to nasal to something else. Kinda concerned though; I'm getting a new upper partial in a couple weeks and I have no idea what effect (if any) it's gunna have on what I sound like. :-\ We'll see.

It's Monday.  Ring a bell?
I'm guessing your tone is gonna REALLY change if you don't get off this board and spend the day with B ;)

Yeah, got me on a technicality there bro! That was just before I went to bed. :)

Offline SlideMeister

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Re: TONE
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2022, 11:11:25 PM »
Had a great day! Barbara and I went for a ride, fifty miles down the street, to DannyG's who (bless his heart) took us to dinner. Whatta guy! Then just drove around and got home at 10:PM  Great day! :)

Offline Ed McCullough

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Re: TONE
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2022, 12:37:09 AM »
I conciously choose whether I use cupping method or the cheese sandwich method of holding a harmonica. During a piece of music I often switch between the two at various points to give variety of tone colors..

Someone might have great tone from embouchure and shape of the inside of the mouth, or other factors. That's fine, but do people give variety within on piece of music?  Do people play one part of a piece legato and another part staccato. Do people make changes in volume? Do people make variations in volume?   

 Do people make changes between dark sound of cupping with large internal mouth voume     AND     the cheese sandwich hold with internal mouth volume as small as possible. That's one of my thoughts about tone.     There is more than one set of questions about tone.

Offline Splashdown

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Re: TONE
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2022, 08:03:07 AM »
What a great discussion!

I think the secret may be embouchure--the deeper the harmonica goes into your mouth, the better your tone. That, plus breath control, gives the songs emotion. I'm still learning.
"When you're happy, you listen to the music. When you're sad, you understand the lyrics."
-- George Jones

Offline Danny G

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Re: TONE
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2022, 11:37:04 AM »
I think it comes down to Playing the music or Singing the song

Offline SlimHeilpern

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Re: TONE
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2022, 11:52:00 AM »
...
I think the secret may be embouchure--the deeper the harmonica goes into your mouth, the better your tone.
...

While this may seem to be the case, I'm pretty sure it's the shape of your oral cavity that makes the difference, not how much of your mouth is covering the harmonica. However, putting the harmonica deep in your mouth will tend to open up your oral cavity, hence the impression that this gives you a fuller tone, but you don't need to swallow the harmonica to achieve this, just keep the same internal mouth shape. And yes, you can have great tone and be a pucker player.

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Offline Jimmy Halfnote

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Re: TONE
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2022, 12:01:25 PM »
I think it comes down to Playing the music or Singing the song

 

                                                     jh.

Offline Grizzly

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Re: TONE
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2022, 12:23:20 PM »
I think it comes down to Playing the music or Singing the song

  https://youtu.be/OFHyBiKEpZg

                                                     jh.
Your point being?

As with any superb orchestra, the TONE of the individual instruments and their sections is unparalleled. (Even when all three flutists play PICCOLO at ~6:00! ;)) (I played piccolo all through college.)

Tom
working on my second 10,000!

Offline Jimmy Halfnote

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Re: TONE
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2022, 02:59:06 PM »

 The point ? Does tone = discipline ?  Once a famous jazz player was called upon to play a new score,the composer asked him to play with no vibrato...he couldn't.. so they used another player.
                                                  jh.

                                               

Offline SlideMeister

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Re: TONE
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2022, 03:09:44 PM »
I gotta agree with Slim here. While there are certainly a whole bunch of things that can be involved in tone, I don't believe any of them are more instrumental than the ole' oral cavity. Just draw two or more holes and (regardless of you religious persuasion ::)) articulate the word "hallelujah" and you'll hear the whole word. Now try doing that with your "diagram." ;D

Offline ejacob4

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Re: TONE
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2022, 11:21:00 PM »
Slim. Yes. When I started, reading books and blogs and forums, it was “eating the harp.” I think I came across it in diabolical. It worked. Sooner or later you figure it’s how your oral cavity works, not how far back the instrument is.

Still, when something starts going wrong with my tone, I eat the harp again to remind myself.

It is true that changing the oral cavity changes the tone.

Sure cupping changes tone, softens it.

It comes down to how you want to sound, which is not to say there is one ideal.

With work and time and care, you find your tone, or tones.

Pretty much like anything else worth anything, or one’s self. 🙏

Best regards,
Ed


Offline Ed McCullough

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Re: TONE
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2022, 12:18:16 AM »
I don't think anyone here commented on what I last wrote.

A sadly deceased, wonderful lady friend had graduated from the Eastman School of Music, and studied violin under some of the most famous concertmasters, not to mention the faculty of Eastman School of Music. Then she was a public school music teacher 40 years, as well as being co-concertmaster for a regional orchestra.  I'd say she had experience.

When I played for her in her last years, she was amazed at all the different sound colors, styles and articulations I got from my Hohner Super 64.    If I had stuck with one style of holding, and one shape of my mouth and lips, she would not have said that.

I also vary tempos within a piece, vary the articulations, etc.  There is no such thing as "just play through the piece". That's  how I played when I was 13, and a guest at our house was polite, but I bored him horribly.

You might guess that my main musical interest is "classical".   Most of what I just wrote might not apply so much to other styles, especially if the piece is fairly short?

« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 10:29:33 PM by Ed McCullough »

Offline Corinto

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Re: TONE
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2022, 01:42:02 PM »
Another piece of advice, from jazz-
dixieland player Jelly Roll Morton.
He said, in an interview:

Play easy tunes, and play them well.

Very good advice!
Carpe diem, C.

Offline Corinto

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Re: TONE
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2022, 01:45:40 PM »
Basic reading of music is dirt simple. Kindergarten kids can read simple music.

My grandkids, 4 and 6 yo, read music. The 6 yo reads better music than words, and yes, he started 2+ years ago reading music and only 6 months ago reading words.
Carpe diem, C.

Offline AlEx

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Re: TONE
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2022, 04:48:48 AM »
I often find I have a not-so-pleasing tone when I practice, until the harp (or maybe myself) hase been warmed up by playing for 30 minutes or so. Anyway, while I often feel my tone is not that nice to my ears, I may enjoy it much more while playing with a mic and headphones (without hiding everything behind tons of reverb  ::) ).

The same happens when I practice while wearing my earbuds. I don't know if that's because it removes a lot of high end frequencies, or if it's because I give more attention to my oral cavity. As if I "listened more with my mouth" when wearing them, if that means anything...