Slide Version of the PentaBender--When Will He Quit?

[jazmaan]

Wow
That’s quite a recommendation!
I’m almost finished retuning a solo to legato.  I’ve wanted to try it for a good while and have started and stopped a bit. I’m just about done now. Just need to fine tune it.
Why do you prefer the slide pentabender  over the legato so much?

I like the fact that on Pentaslider tuning the white notes on a piano are all available without use of the button. And as long as you don't use the button, you won't hit a black note.  It seems more intuitive than LeGato where some of the draw/slide-out notes are accidentals.   Another way of putting that:   If you need a sharp or flat,  you will always need to use the button.  (Similar to Solo Tuning in that regard!)  Pretty intuitive.

I also like the fact that on Pentaslider tuning there are enharmonics for Bb and Eb.   There was only one way to play those notes on LeGato.  The trade off is that Pentaslider has no enharmonics for C# or F#, but those notes seem less frequently needed than Bb and Eb, at least in the keys I usually play.

[Gnarly He Man]

I'm already to the point with Pentaslider tuning that I don't think I'll be going back to LeGato.

That's great, send me back the 260 and I'll practice for half an hour and then put it back in a box until someone else wants it.

[jazmaan]

I'm already to the point with Pentaslider tuning that I don't think I'll be going back to LeGato.

That's great, send me back the 260 and I'll practice for half an hour and then put it back in a box until someone else wants it.

I'll bring it to NAMM.

[Gnarly He Man]

Thanks.

[jazmaan]

Regardless of the tuning (which I am definitely enjoying),  I want to repeat again that this new Seydel Deluxe Steel is by far the most responsive chromatic I own - more so than my Saxony!   At this point I have to wonder what the Saxony advantage is supposed ot be if they both use stainless steel reeds?   Does the current Saxony also offer the new rounded mouthpiece?  That mouthpiece is great, but also the reeds themselves just seem to react better on this new Deluxe Steel.   Maybe Seydel is just getting better across the board on all its harps?  Or maybe I just got lucky this time.

[Vyacheslav]

Can you please help and post lay out of the PentaBender and Pentaslide tunings? I tried to search it on the forum but cant find..

[Gnarly He Man]

As requested, the layout for PentaBender and its slide equivalent.
Both of these start on G3.

[jazmaan]

I don't believe Seydel Customizer will make you a Pentaslider that starts on G.   If I recall correctly A-flat is the lowest starting note they will make for you.  Anything lower than that and the customizer will choke on the high end holes.   

My Seydel factory tuned Pentaslider starts on C.   

Also, another reason I'm liking Pentaslider vs LeGato, is that on a "C harp" (one that starts in C),  you get a nice draw G chord, making it nicer to play in the key of G than an equivalent LeGato "C harp".

[Vyacheslav]

I can see that pentaslider take 5 holes per octave instead of 4. But we have more opportunities to choose how to play note we want. So how it is on 12 hole harmonica? Is it enough 2,5 octave range?

[jazmaan]

10 holes is not enough.  12 holes is do-able. 14 holes even better but not necessary (extrapolating from my experience with 14 hole Fourkey LeGato).

[Gnarly He Man]

I made at least one 16 hole LeGato, so I know a PentaSlider can be done in that size.

[IaNerd]

Given PentaBender's broad shoulders, I think it would be a good candidate for Brendan's Switch-Diatonic system.  http://www.brendan-power.com/harmonicas-twin-diatonic.php

[Gnarly He Man]

Jazmaan has several LeGato slide harmonicas, it would be an easy adjustment to change them to PentaSlider.
I am not sure he wants to do that tho, I guess we will hear about it if he decides to do that.
I personally think that Power Chromatic is a better choice, since you get all the accidentals with the slide.
PentaBender
F   G   A   C   D   F   G   A   C   D
1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10
G   A   B   D   E   G   A   B   D   E

owes a bit to Power Chromatic
F   A   C   D   F   A   C   D   F   A
1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10
G   B   D   E   G   B   D   E   G   B

[IaNerd]

Gary, are those two tunings identical?

[Gnarly He Man]

Gary, are those two tunings identical?

They're not supposed to be!
OK, I fixed it--and here's a video comparing the two (and contrasting them with a G--beware, it's a diatonic video, but the tuning is the same).

[oldstudent]

I just got a new 10-hole pentabender (no slide) from Seydel.  It is in C, but its low note is D, so that I get two full octaves in 10 holes:
D  F  G  A  C  D  F  G  A  C   (blow)
E  G  A  B  D  E  G  A  B  D   (draw)
I am planning to concentrate on learning to play it in 3rd minor position (Dm) and 2nd major position (G), two scales in which one can take advantage of the pentatonic scales on the blows and draws.  (This is a very different approach from my first time trying the pentabender, back in 2014, when I mainly played it in first position.)
For learning the instrument, I plan to let the default choice in each pair of enharmonic notes be the blow note.  Of the 12 notes in the chromatic scale, 7 of them have to be played as draws on the pentabender (5 as draw bends and 2 as straight draw notes), but only 2 notes have to be played as blows.  So a general rule of playing the blow note in each of the 3 enharmonic pairs could be good for balancing the two breath directions.
With this convention, the C-pentabender feels very much like a C-fourkey, except that the draw notes in holes 2, 3, 5, 7, and 8 all need to be bent.  For the blues, this feels very natural to me.

[oldstudent]

There are actually three ways to make a 10-hole pentabender harmonica that plays the C major scale and has a range of two full octaves.  I would label them as follows:

Pentabender 10.2 (second-position root in blow 1)
G  A  C  D  F  G  A  C  D  F   (blow)
A  B  D  E  G  A  B  D  E  G   (draw)

Pentabender 10.3 (third-position root in blow 1)
D  F  G  A  C  D  F  G  A  C   (blow)
E  G  A  B  D  E  G  A  B  D   (draw)

Pentabender 10.4 (fourth-position root in blow 1)
A  C  D  F  G  A  C  D  F  G   (blow)
B  D  E  G  A  B  D  E  G  A   (draw)

Which is best for playing the most tunes the most comfortably, within the limited range of a 10-hole pentatonic harmonica?
As noted above, I am playing a Pentabender 10.3 right now, but I have also ordered a Pentabender 10.2 to try it also.

[For completeness, the other two possible layouts, which fall one note short of two octaves, are:
Pentabender 10.1
C  D  F  G  A  C  D  F  G  A   (blow)
D  E  G  A  B  D  E  G  A  B   (draw)
Pentabender 10.0
F  G  A  C  D  F  G  A  C  D   (blow)
G  A  B  D  E  G  A  B  D  E   (draw)]

[Gnarly He Man]

My three PentaBenders all start on G3--but are in different keys (C, F, and G). I mainly use the C--but not much.
Glad you are continuing to explore the possibilities.

[Sea Born]

And here is that video--enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZETU-FnQ8Q

Hey Gary!  Thanks for posting this link.  It was great to (sorta) see you again.  Loved the 'fish' song!   

[oldstudent]

On my 10-hole pentabender with the third-position root in blow 1, I have been working on "St Louis Blues" in third position, and "Juke" in second position.
I like this instrument!

[Gnarly He Man]

Just read thru the thread, wanted to do an update.
First thing, Roger is not referring to a slide instrument, just the regular PentaBender.
I just put the plates into my HFC, so now there are two slide PentaBenders in the Universe (OK, three, I have the 260, and Jazmaan had the Seydel).
But my Hands Free plates (270) seem to be tuned to D--G Penta blow, A Penta draw. And I have been putting more practice time (admittedly, not much) into the C plates (F Penta blow, G Penta draw, starting on G3).
So I think they are going get retuned--again.
And then I'll practice 

[Gnarly He Man]

Practicing a little bit on the Hands Free PentaBender Chromatic in C--
Every hole has 4 notes!
This one starts on G3 (nice to have a note I can count on across tunings!), so that hole is |G ab A bb |
And every hole has that arrangement.
Not that there is consistency--too many enharmonics, and a strange change at hole 4 (blow 4 is D, but draw button 3 is Eb!).
So Jazmaan, how's it going?

[jazmaan]

I've been playing my Melody Maker Switch Harp exclusively this year.

[oldstudent]

Well, guys, I've moved from the one-key pentabender back to the two-key "pentablues" harmonica that I was exploring back in 2014.
http://www.SlideMeister.com/forums/index.php?topic=1205.msg133766#msg133766

The problem with all pentatonic tunings is that, with 5 notes per octave, a 10-hole harmonica has only a two-octave range, and fitting the range of a tune into the range of the instrument can become an annoying problem if you have only one good key to play it in.  For songs that you want to play without much bending, that is frequently a problem with a 10-hole pentabender that plays only one major key without bending.  (And I really like staying in a little 10-hole harp.)  But by changing just one note per octave, we can get a pentatonic harmonica that plays two major keys without bending and plays the whole 12-note chromatic scale with simple draw bends.

The two-key "pentablues" harmonica that I am playing now has the following layout, which differs from my 10.3 pentabender only in that the G draw notes have been changed to F#, to let us play both the C and the G major scales without bending:
D  F  G  A  C  D  F  G  A  C   (blow)
E  F# A  B  D  E  F# A  B  D   (draw)

Notice that the blow notes here form a D-minor pentatonic scale, and the draw notes here form a D-major pentatonic scale.  That is, if you start from the low D blow note on the left and go up through the blow notes and finally switch to the high D draw note on the right, then you are playing two octaves of a D-minor pentatonic scale.  But if you switch from the low blow note to play up the draw notes thereafter, then you are playing two octaves of a D-major pentatonic scale.  So although this harp can play the C and G major 7-note scales without bending, I call it a D-pentablues harmonica, because it is fundamentally built on the D-major and D-minor pentatonic scales. I'd call C the first position and G the second position here, but I'd name the instrument for its third position which combines both major and minor pentatonic scales.

I stopped playing this tuning after first trying it in 2014 because I found that several hard songs that I liked playing on the fourkey seemed too difficult to play in this two-key pentablues tuning.  But now I understand where to put the bends better than in 2014, and I've been able to find a good position to play each of these songs nicely on the two-key pentablues harp.  Having four bend notes per octave (compared with five in the pentabender and two in the fourkey), the two-key pentablues harp does a good job of letting us use bends notes where we'd want them, not just where we need them. (A quote from Jazmaan there.)

[Gnarly He Man]

Well, I guess I will retune one of my 365 PentaBenders and check it out!

[Gnarly He Man]

Yeah, I didn't do that . . .
But I did dig the Slide PentaBender out of a box today and tootled a bit--I sure do like this tuning!
Gotta build a 12 hole version of one, I dislike the 260 MP and it's not quite enough range, really--
Wonder if Hohner is currently selling a replacement MP for the 260 . . .

[Gnarly He Man]

Fate has brought me back to this tuning, and this thread--
I made a chart, 8 of the 12 notes have enharmonics--all the notes on the blow plate, and all the notes on the draw button plate.
Only E and B and C# and F# have no "soul mate".
So there are a number of ways to phrase, you can get very legato with this harp.
Still no 12 hole (I have the Orchestra Bebop plates back in my HFC, it too is getting a little more attention these days), but the 14 hole no slide version saw some action in the past few days. Those (there are three in my possession) could be useful for rack playing (in a live performance situation) since they are fully chromatic with draw bends.
So the four "chords" are F, F#, G and Ab--not really chords, they are 5 note pentatonic scales!--and there is a partial C (and C#) chord on the draw (E and G).

[Gnarly He Man]

I have retuned the LeGato plates I had in the 16 hole harmonica I tried to sell to JazMaan, so I now have a proper PentaSlider.
Starts on G3, goes up to Bb6–three plus octaves, that’ll work.
I’m gonna work up the head to A Train and post it here.