Diminished or Augmented - why do we still play solo or bebop tuned chromatics?

[dougharps]

The recent thread about using more than one key of solo tuned chromatic (the approach I fell into) made me think about the advantages to symmetrical tunings that offer all keys with just a few playing patterns, unlike solo and bebop tuned chromatics that require different patterns for each major scale (except C and C#).

I learned chromatic as a kid with a key of G chromatic like the one my great uncle played for family sing-a-longs.  G is a good key for sing-a-longs and G chromatics have been available for a long time. His was the first harmonica I ever heard played in person, in 1960 or '61. So I asked for and got a solo tuned chromatic and the solo tuned interval pattern became hardwired into my brain between the ages of 11 and 21 as I figured out how to play different melodies on it. I only played in a few keys when I switched to diatonic for rock and blues. I still only play in a few keys now after resuming chromatic.

After I resumed chromatic  in the 1990s in order to enhance my musical options, I picked up where I left off. I just had a G and C solo tuned chromatic until I fell in with people playing lots of jazz in keys I was unable to play. To keep up I added other keys of inexpensive Hering chromatics as a fast way to play in many keys without the steep learning curve required to do it all on a C solo tuned chromatic. The gig money from playing out payed for the different keys, and I could write them off at tax time.

So why do chromatic players still advocate solo tuned or bebop tuned instruments to beginners? Why do we keep trying to crash through the brick wall of awkward keys in this layout when we could open a door and walk through without bruises by using a symmetrical note pattern tuned instrument?

If I had begun with a diminished (or augmented) and had THOSE patterns hardwired into my brain I could play in all keys on one instrument. My instrument case would be considerably lighter. My financial investment in instruments would have been much lower.

I think I am beyond switching over to a symmetrical tuning due to my long term habituation to the solo tuned interval pattern (though bebop would probably not be too big a change for me).

But why don't chromatic harmonica advocates including SPAH strongly advocate for new players to learn chromatic harmonica on an instrument with a symmetrical note pattern? The idea of learning a few patterns that would allow me to play all keys is enticing.

Here is a link to a site describing diminished tuned chromatics. Reading it made me wonder why solo tuned chromatics are still prevalent.

http://www.angelfire.com/music/harmonica/dimichromintro.html

There are other sites giving info on diminished, too. Try a search for "diminished tuned chromatic harmonica".

I don't see myself stopping what is working for me now, but I would like to hear if there are reasons to continue solo tuned chromatics other than, "That is what I learned on."



Doug S.

[streetlegal]

A logical approach would have taken me to augmented tuning - as the idea of a place for every note and every note in just one place has a big appeal for me. But that is just thinking about the thing systematically.

As I have learned to play music to a certain degree in all 12 keys on my Major 7 tuned chromatics (Major 7 is the closest you can get to Solo Tuning and still qualify as an Altered Tuning) I must say that I do now take a lot of enjoyment from the different layouts of the keys. Because these layouts are all different, it brings a different physical quality and character to playing music in each key - they sound different but they also feel different to play. It's a quirky kind of experience, but sometimes the quirky paths are the most interesting to follow. 

[SlimHeilpern]

This has been discussed on this forum many, many times over the years, so you might want to revisit some of those threads.

I admit to getting tired of pointing out the advantages of sticking to an old standard. I'll just say this much: There are not-so-obvious advantages and very obvious disadvantages to solo tuning, but, as evidenced by some amazing solo-tuned players, solo-tuning is not ultimately limiting, and, like it or not, most manufacturers have stuck with it because there is no other standard.

Should a consensus emerge among players (and I can almost guarantee that it won't), perhaps manufacturers would change their tune (so to speak). I commend Seydel for their flexibility, but even they use solo tuning as their standard.

I personally would not advise any new student to use an alternate tuning, simply due to the inconvenience and expense of acquiring custom-tuned chromatics.

- Slim

[dougharps]

@streetlegal
I never heard of a Major 7 chromatic, just diatonic. Could you post a link to that chromatic layout?

@SlimHellpern
The cost or diy hassle of special tunings is a valid point. However, the ability to improvise in any key on one instrument without years of learning a separate pattern for each key is an attractive idea.

I don't want to take up space and time repeating past threads, but at least one participant in the keyed chromatic thread found an alternate tuning superior to solo tuning and indicated that improvisation was enhanced. I am pretty well set in my ways for what I play, but wondered if I had missed a superior tuning as a youth just because of old habits being passed on, like the QUERTY keyboard layout.

[AimlessWanderer]

I don't have a good enough grasp on music theory to recognise the advantages or disadvantages either way, but as a beginner, I want something standard that I can learn on. This is partially for cost, but also ease of replacement in case of loss or damage. I also envisage that most of what I play will be single notes, so the chords are of little importance to me right now, and improvisation is a very long way down the wishlist.

I don't expect moving onto alternate tunings later, should I choose to, being any more difficult to learning different guitar tunings, or moving from guitar to mandolin, or from clarinet to sax. I could of course be wrong there though.

[Gnarly He Man]

I like dimi, lots to recommend it.
But I have to play standard tuned instruments routinely in my role as harp tech.
And I like bebop a lot, and it only requires a simple retune of the redundant blow C on hole 4 (and its slide partner), and since I offer the service to customers, I cannot recommend it strongly enough.
End of commercial message.
But yeah, I do dimis for folks too, and it's great.
Seydel will do these tunings for folks too, I am not the only game in town.
Augmented (I tried it) doesn't do much for me, and it is super hard to create from a solo tuned instrument.
Tuning a G to Orchestra bebop is work, but not too tough.

[streetlegal]

@streetlegal
I never heard of a Major 7 chromatic, just diatonic. Could you post a link to that chromatic layout?

My Major 7 tuning is very close to what is called 'Classical Tuning' - built on a CEGB blow chord. My layout differs a little bit at hole 4 as I preferred to keep the draw B - so I have duplicate blow and draw Bs instead of a draw C as on Classical. Also I play flat-slide which changes things in other ways.

But as requested, here is the link to the Classical layout, with some good commentary too.

 http://www.angelfire.com/music/harmonica/imaj7layouts.html

[dougharps]

Thank you for your explanation of your tuning and the link. I had noted the heading of "Classical Tuning" previously when looking at different tuning schemes for chromatic harmonica and glanced at the layout, but I had not explored the depth of information available there.

On the page you provided I followed a link  to <home>: http://www.angelfire.com/music/harmonica/index.html

then I clicked to Altered Tunings and layouts: http://www.angelfire.com/music/harmonica/altered.html

I particularly enjoyed the Pat Missin "musings" page on altered tunings: 

http://www.angelfire.com/music/HarpOn/patsmusings.html

Pat Missin offered a lot of information and clarified my thinking. I liked the section on "Tuning Bias".

The link you provided on Classical Tuning gave good information, and in that information was the following statement:

"The only two times I would recommend Solo tuning over Classical tuning are for: people who play chromatic in traditional Chicago Blues style in "3rd position"; and those who always play in key of C in Vaudeville style with lots of vamping."

I play 3rd position blues in various keys on keyed chromatics on those occasions when playing with a blues band. I also have a tendency to use the modes of the home key (or sharped home key, slide in) of my keyed chromatic harmonicas when improvising (along with generous use of the button for incidentals and ornaments) I may fall into that group who play what he describes as "Vaudeville style with lots of vamping".

Based on all the material I have read so far I think that solo tuned keyed chromatics is what best meets my needs, which is good, because I already have them!

I think of my set of keyed chromatics along with my many diatonics as being "my instrument".

Thanks again!


Doug S.

[SaxonyFan]

I play the chromatic totally by ear. Playing by ear - playing such that what ever is firmly in your mind’s ear automatically comes out of your instrument - is pure musical joy. I doubt that I could have achieved this ability without a “symmetrical” pitch layout (I play the augmented pitch layout). Maybe I could have but I am sure without a doubt that it would have taken much longer.

And as we have covered numerous times here the availability of symmetric pitch layouts is not a major issue. Please stop suggesting that it is, folks.

BTW, I have heard harmonica manufacturers refer to the “solo tuning” as the “silly tuning”.


PS: I have no idea what “playing in third position” means and I will never need to.

[John Broecker]

Playing in the key of D minor Dorian mode on a C harmonica,
is playing in 3rd position. No sharps or flats are needed: play
the D Dorian mode slide out, on a C harmonica.

Key of C
(starting at hole 1, or 5, or 9 on a standard solo system harp)
Large letters are exhale reeds, small letters are inhale reeds:

|C d |E f |G a |b C |  (play the tune, Over the Rainbow)

D Dorian mode
(starting at hole 1, or 5 or 9 on a standard solo system harp)
In the Dorian mode, D is now "do":

|d |E f |G a |b C |d |  (play the tune, Scarborough Fair)

Start the key on the d draw note, end the key on the d draw
note for a Dorian mode.

The Dorian mode is useful for slide chromatic harp players
playing a blues scale, and for some folk tunes. On a C
harmonica, the Dorian mode has no sharps or flats.

Best Regards

John Broecker

[Gnarly He Man]

SaxonyFan wrote:

And as we have covered numerous times here the availability of symmetric pitch layouts is not a major issue. Please stop suggesting that it is, folks.

It is an issue if you have to do it yourself.

[streetlegal]

Yes indeed - a retuner's nightmare.Those who want to go down the augmented path, should go straight to the Seydel configurator. Without going into a lot of detail (there is good information about augmented in previous threads) it needs a little bit of pre-planning as to which scales you want to go where.

[Keith]

Just thinking about 'why we play solo tuned' chroms, it has to do with availability, likely bebop would be more popular if it was 'off the shelf'.

[SlimHeilpern]

Perhaps worth noting that very few non-string instruments have a "symmetrical" layout, so it's not clear to me what the fuss is all about. Woodwind, piano, brass, mallet percussion, etc... are not symmetrical and every key is different. Even standard guitar tuning is not symmetrical -- and even though it's much, much, much easier to retune a guitar, most of the folks who do that are tuning to a chord which is even less symmetrical.

I do understand the attraction and motivation of symmetrical tuning, but thinking that it's otherwise too hard to learn to be fluid in all keys is perhaps misguided. You currently have a choice every time you need a new harmonica: order a custom tuned harp from Seydel, retune it yourself, pay someone to retune it, or play just about any off-the-shelf chromatic you like since they are all available solo-tuned. And, if you wish to study the work of top notch chromatic players, keep in mind that almost all of them are playing licks that are 'fingered' (for lack of a better term) using solo-tuned harmonicas.

As a harmonica player, you at least have the choice :-).

- Slim

[AimlessWanderer]

Yes indeed - a retuner's nightmare.Those who want to go down the augmented path, should go straight to the Seydel configurator. Without going into a lot of detail (there is good information about augmented in previous threads) it needs a little bit of pre-planning as to which scales you want to go where.

That doesn't help beginners though

As a noob, I have no idea what kind of music I'll settle on, never mind what the best suited tools will be. Again, as a noob, I can't help but wonder why have enharmonics at all. 6 whole tones in an octave would site over three holes, allowing four octaves in a 12-holer (barring the final root note), yet all the tunings I've seen so far (I haven't studied them all) follow a four hole repeating pattern.

There's also the issue of standardisation with available tabs. Someone coming to harmonica who is new to music, needs to know there's available material to guide them from total noob to amateur harmonica player. As someone who didn't figure out his harmonica songbook was for diatonic until his chromatic was playing all the wrong notes, and who struggled to find reference material for his six-string baritone ukulele, or full fingering charts for his bass clarinet, standardisation and availability of guides and tutorials matters.

[SlimHeilpern]

Yes indeed - a retuner's nightmare.Those who want to go down the augmented path, should go straight to the Seydel configurator. Without going into a lot of detail (there is good information about augmented in previous threads) it needs a little bit of pre-planning as to which scales you want to go where.

...
 I can't help but wonder why have enharmonics at all. 6 whole tones in an octave would site over three holes, allowing four octaves in a 12-holer (barring the final root note),
...

I believe solo tuning (perhaps incorrectly named) was designed to primarily play in the root key with accidentals available while maintaining the ability to play chords while you're playing the melody (pumping the I and V chords, commonly via tongue blocking). That explains the redundant pitches. But the redundant pitches can be your friend when playing legato lines. For instance, on a C chrom, the C scale can be played much more legato by using the draw C and blow F instead of playing it without the slide. When used this way, I consider the redundant pitches an unintentional feature, not a drawback.

- Slim

[Gnarly He Man]

I consider the redundant pitches an unintentional feature, not a drawback.

I am used to enharmonics, being a guitar player.
And I find that my improvisation owes a lot to my string sensibilities.
But as to Solo vs bebop--the Bebop tuning changes a redundant C note (blow 4) into a Bb, giving you three enharmonics in a row (there are now 2 Bb notes, 2 B notes and 2 C notes) and the breath pattern is altered so that every blow note is lower that the draw note.
Not in the case of the enharmonics of course--the blow button note is the same as the draw note, just like on the second hole (for the note F)--but there is no reversal of the breath pattern as on the chromatic (or the diatonic, at hole 7 the breath pattern reverses, and the top four holes of the diatonic have a reverse breath pattern--draws are lower than blows).
Still, Dimi is smart--every draw button note is the same as the next highest blow hole.
There is an alternative dimi tuning, where the pattern is like hole 2 (the enharmonic is blow button/draw no button) but that's not the one most folks use.
I can name you some great players who use dimi, but come up short naming accomplished Auggie guys (Roadie? What happened to that guy?)

[SlimHeilpern]

I consider the redundant pitches an unintentional feature, not a drawback.

I am used to enharmonics, being a guitar player.
And I find that my improvisation owes a lot to my string sensibilities.
But as to Solo vs bebop--the Bebop tuning changes a redundant C note (blow 4) into a Bb, giving you three enharmonics in a row (there are now 2 Bb notes, 2 B notes and 2 C notes) and the breath pattern is altered so that every blow note is lower that the draw note.
...

Right, and you can take it much further, as in the case of David Fairweather's "Legato" tuning.

There are many ways to "improve" upon solo tuning, some with more drawbacks than others (for instance, the Legato tuning gives you incredible flexibility at the cost of range).

The bottom line, I believe, is that while solo tuning is far from perfect, it is the standard, and that in of itself can be an important feature, depending on your personal goals and preferences. And to AimlessWanderer's point, if you're not going to be self-taught or if you're going to rely on tablature (as opposed to standard music notation), the best choice is probably to stick with solo tuning. For those who are good with going it alone (without tab) and don't care about copping licks from the likes of Stevie Wonder, Toots Thielemans, Larry Adler, etc... a symmetrical tuning may get you where you want to be faster than solo tuning. Bebop tuning is a relatively small change from solo, for those who are experienced enough to appreciate the difference and care enough about it to make the change.

- Slim

[Gnarly He Man]

I just exchanged text messages with Bill Barrett, one of the finest chromatic harmonica players on the planet. He uses bebop tuning (that's how I got on the bandwagon).
I asked him if he has issues playing on a standard tuned chrom. He replied (in part):

Not too much. I can do most of what I do on a standard chromatic. I know we agree, the bebop tuning is superior.

That's him, I do have issues. But then, he is an actual working player, and I only play harp as a "value added" feature.
I am off to a nursing home, have fun without me!

[SaxonyFan]

SaxonyFan wrote:

And as we have covered numerous times here the availability of symmetric pitch layouts is not a major issue. Please stop suggesting that it is, folks.

It is an issue if you have to do it yourself.

I, as with most players, purchase their harps in the tuning they want from the manufacturer.

[SaxonyFan]

AimlessWander

Here is what a noob needs to know when choosing a pitch layout:

(1) The key of a piece of tonal music does not dictate the pitches you will use.

(2) A master improviser uses all 12 pitches of the chromatic scale only slightly favoring chord tones of the underlying chord progression.

Give those two simple facts why would anybody choose a pitch layout that somehow favors a particular key? Symmetric pitch layouts are designed around these two facts. Choose your pitch layout based on your 20 year goals (which will change in ways unimagined) not your 2 year goals.

[Gnarly He Man]

SaxonyFan wrote:

And as we have covered numerous times here the availability of symmetric pitch layouts is not a major issue. Please stop suggesting that it is, folks.

It is an issue if you have to do it yourself.

I, as with most players, purchase their harps in the tuning they want from the manufacturer.

Well, most players use solo tuning, hard to argue with the "most" thing.

[AimlessWanderer]

The bottom line, I believe, is that while solo tuning is far from perfect, it is the standard, and that in of itself can be an important feature, depending on your personal goals and preferences. And to AimlessWanderer's point, if you're not going to be self-taught or if you're going to rely on tablature (as opposed to standard music notation), the best choice is probably to stick with solo tuning.

Cheers Slim. As the songbook I got has "incorrect" (for my harps) tablature, I will indeed be working from score now. As such, I'll also be using a clarinet songbook I have, although I will of course have to transpose that, so that will be for when I'm a little more fluent in theory.

AimlessWander

Here is what a noob needs to know when choosing a pitch layout:

(1) The key of a piece of tonal music does not dictate the pitches you will use.

(2) A master improviser uses all 12 pitches of the chromatic scale only slightly favoring chord tones of the underlying chord progression.

Give those two simple facts why would anybody choose a pitch layout that somehow favors a particular key? Symmetric pitch layouts are designed around these two facts. Choose your pitch layout based on your 20 year goals (which will change in ways unimagined) not your 2 year goals.

I think you nailed it with that last point, SaxonyFan. It's only when you have gained some experience that you can determine where you want to go with the instrument, and therefore determine which tuning would be the best vehicle to take you there. I tried eluding to this in an earlier post, but possibly wasn't as clear as I might have been.

In the meantime, I'll be sticking with the solo tuning on my Hohner 64, and the modified solo on my Swan 1040, purely because there's no additional expense or hassle, and at my true beginner level, I wouldn't expect any benefits from alternate tuning systems anyway. I'll still be missing holes, voicing wrong, and having to think about the location of the next note, irrespective of where that next note should live

[SaxonyFan]

SaxonyFan wrote:

And as we have covered numerous times here the availability of symmetric pitch layouts is not a major issue. Please stop suggesting that it is, folks.

It is an issue if you have to do it yourself.

I, as with most players, purchase their harps in the tuning they want from the manufacturer.

Well, most players use solo tuning, hard to argue with the "most" thing.

The discussion is about altered tunings, right?

[dougharps]

@SaxonyFan

The intent of my original post was to solicit information and opinions regarding why the use of symmetrical tunings such as Diminished or Augmented has not been generally adopted and why people still play solo or bebop tuned chromatics. The question came to mind during the keyed chromatic discussion and your advocacy of symmetrical tunings for improvisation in all keys.

I was interested in reasons for either approach beyond the issue of availability, though that may be a factor for some. Later I mentioned the continued use of the QUERTY keyboard despite more modern layouts being available and asked if this was similar.

In my case over 50 plus years I have hardwired in the patterns of solo tuning in several keys and can improvise in them, I already own multiple keys of chromatics purchased of necessity with gig money, and I sometimes use them in 3rd position blues style, so I am unlikely to switch at this late date.

However, if improvisation in all keys on one instrument is the goal, I think that you make a good argument for starting on a symmetrical tuning and learning that layout. I thought it bore discussion outside of the keyed chromatics thread.


Doug S.

[Gnarly He Man]

SaxonyFan wrote:

And as we have covered numerous times here the availability of symmetric pitch layouts is not a major issue. Please stop suggesting that it is, folks.

It is an issue if you have to do it yourself.

I, as with most players, purchase their harps in the tuning they want from the manufacturer.

Well, most players use solo tuning, hard to argue with the "most" thing.

The discussion is about altered tunings, right?

Well, in that case, I doubt it. It’s too expensive, and harmonica players are notoriously frugal.
But I do a fair amount of retuning for folks—perhaps this is a percentage of the folks you are claiming as being serviced “by the manufacturer “?
Suzuki does not offer this service (I offered), nor does Easttop. AFAIK, only Seydel and Hohner do—and Hohner charges an arm and a leg.
Offering custom tunings is one of the finer things Seydel does👌!

[SaxonyFan]

SaxonyFan wrote:

And as we have covered numerous times here the availability of symmetric pitch layouts is not a major issue. Please stop suggesting that it is, folks.

It is an issue if you have to do it yourself.

I, as with most players, purchase their harps in the tuning they want from the manufacturer.

Well, most players use solo tuning, hard to argue with the "most" thing.

The discussion is about altered tunings, right?

Well, in that case, I doubt it. It’s too expensive, and harmonica players are notoriously frugal.
But I do a fair amount of retuning for folks—perhaps this is a percentage of the folks you are claiming as being serviced “by the manufacturer “?
Suzuki does not offer this service (I offered), nor does Easttop. AFAIK, only Seydel and Hohner do—and Hohner charges an arm and a leg.
Offering custom tunings is one of the finer things Seydel does👌!

I invest a lot of time in playing music. $100 more is nothing compared to the time I invest.

[Gnarly He Man]

I put a call in to Hohner, let's see what they say.
Anything to avoid practice.

[EZ-Slider]

Any vids out there breaking down Dimi and Augmented tunings?
EZ

[SaxonyFan]

Any vids out there breaking down Dimi and Augmented tunings?
EZ

If you go to Seydel’s site and navigate to their HarpConfigurator you can choose the different preconfigured pitch layouts. The augmented tuning is called the whole tone tuning on the Seydel HarpConfigurator.

I don’t see any advantages of the diminished tuning over the augmented tuning. I do see disadvantages: (1) Bigger jumps for most intervals and (2) Less range for a given harp size. However IMO either is superior to the Solo pitch layout.