Flatslide Chromatics for Irish Music

[GregH]

Based on past discussions, I know there are a few Irish/Celtic traditional players here on Il Maestro di Scivolare, so maybe we could have a thread about _Flatslide_ chromatics. Based on reading previous threads that talk about flatslide playing, I don't see much functional difference between flatslide & sharpslide - they both have the same benefits & drawbacks, just in different positions. But if you want to play authentic sounding rolls in Irish music a la Eddie Clarke, you really need that low note at the end to make it work (to my ear, anyway). 

Joel Bernstein's 1999 album "The Pigtown Fling" is a great example of chromatic harmonica in Irish music, with rolls in all the right places:
 


Do you play flatslide chromatic?  If so, what's your experience been like when learning tunes on the harmonica? What kind of harmonica and which keys did you settle on?  Do you play other harps like tremolo or diatonic in sessions?

I've been playing Irish music on the accordion/flute/tin whistle for 35+ years, and playing sessions & learning tunes is what hits my twist. Unfortunately my fingers don't work so well any more, and I'm hoping I can learn to play harmonica well enough to keep up, fingers or no fingers. So far so good, and my session-mates still let me play with them.

We were camping a few years ago, and I found a Hohner Echo under the seat in the car. So I sat around the campsite and figured out a bunch of jigs and hornpipes on it, which was a lot of fun. Coincidentally, I read about Seydel's "Irish" G flatslide, and ordered one soon after. I liked it a lot, but blew out a reed right away. Shipping and reed replacement cost close to cdn$100, so when the next reed went, I set it aside for a while. I've Paddy-ized some Richters, but I like the sound of chromatics better. And the valves.

Someone gave me a Suzuki SCX-48 a couple of years ago, which I love playing, but it's clear that you have to commit to either flat or sharp sliding, because life is too short to do both unless you're a career harmonica player and young enough to learn from your mistakes. I'm neither of those things , so eventually I did my own reed replacements and made peace with the G flatslide.

It's working out pretty well so far - I'm picking up G/Am tunes easily, and D and C tunes are getting easier with practice. Eventually I might get a D chromatic to fill in some gaps, or maybe a solo-tuned tremolo will do the trick. So far it's been a lot of fun.

My main observation is that the sharpslide chromatic is fun because you can use the slide to get lots of nice grace notes and the Irish casadh (a single up & down like ABA or cdc). But I found I was getting confused because there are too many possibilities attached to one button push - is it a grace note, an alternate note, or a sharp? And they happen in quick succession, so there can be a lot to think about. Flatslide is maybe less complicated in that respect, because you need use the jaw flick instead of the slide to get articulations like grace notes, which is good practice for rolls, and leave the slide for chromatic notes. I've been working on the rolls for a while now and they're coming along, but they're not up to speed yet. 

What's your take on it?

[SlideMeister]

I suppose I could get used to it if were a law punishable by death, but other than that, the only thing I ever play that "flat slid" ever made sense for was "Beer Barrel" 

[streetlegal]

The thing about flat-slide playing is that it will either feel 'just right' to you or it won't. It is often spoken about in relation to the playing of Irish jigs and reels, but really it doesn't matter what type of music you are playing - if it feels right (comfortable) for the slide button to take you a semitone down, then that will equally apply when playing jazz or country or even classical pieces.

A while back we discussed the best option for tuning specifically for Irish dance music, being played mainly (most of the time) in the keys of D and G. After much thought I came to the decision that a chromatic in the key of G, but starting on D at hole one was a good option - the five hole layout as follows -

Blow slide in   Db F  Gb Bb Db
Blow               D  F# G  B   D
Draw              E   G   A  C   E
Draw slide in  Eb  Gb Ab B  Eb

This five hole layout permits the player to switch easily between tunes in the keys of G and D Major, with only one button note required for the C#/Db note - slide in blow. Of course this is a deviation from standard solo layout - but you could think of it as a kind of flat-slide 'G orchestra' layout, built around the G Major 7 chord. I don't know if any Irish traditional music players are using this layout - but it should at least be worthy of some consideration.

 

[GregH]

I suppose I could get used to it if were a law punishable by death, but other than that, the only thing I ever play that "flat slid" ever made sense for was "Beer Barrel" 

Yeah, it's an Irish music thing. What I've got from reading & watching videos from SlideMeister is that there are so many amazing players on chromatic harmonica, period.  I don't know why anyone would buck the trend for any other reason unless you just had to have that low F# for some reason. And we have our own polkas, so I don't know why we'd miss The Beer Barrel. 

[GregH]

The thing about flat-slide playing is that it will either feel 'just right' to you or it won't. It is often spoken about in relation to the playing of Irish jigs and reels, but really it doesn't matter what type of music you are playing - if it feels right (comfortable) for the slide button to take you a semitone down, then that will equally apply when playing jazz or country or even classical pieces.

A while back we discussed the best option for tuning specifically for Irish dance music, being played mainly (most of the time) in the keys of D and G. After much thought I came to the decision that a chromatic in the key of G, but starting on D at hole one was a good option - the five hole layout as follows -

Blow slide in   Db F  Gb Bb Db
Blow               D  F# G  B   D
Draw              E   G   A  C   E
Draw slide in  Eb  Gb Ab B  Eb

This five hole layout permits the player to switch easily between tunes in the keys of G and D Major, with only one button note required for the C#/Db note - slide in blow. Of course this is a deviation from standard solo layout - but you could think of it as a kind of flat-slide 'G orchestra' layout, built around the G Major 7 chord. I don't know if any Irish traditional music players are using this layout - but it should at least be worthy of some consideration.

That makes sense, and in fact it looks a bit like Jean Sabot's "trad" tuning. I was thinking about starting a thread later to see if we could get him to talk about that. (Sorry, the pic of that layout is on my other computer.)

[SlideMeister]

Yeah, it's an Irish music thing. What I've got from reading & watching videos from SlideMeister is that there are so many amazing players on chromatic harmonica, period.  I don't know why anyone would buck the trend for any other reason unless you just had to have that low F# for some reason. And we have our own polkas, so I don't know why we'd miss The Beer Barrel. 

There ya go!  I HATE Irish music!   More accurately: I actually love it for the first thirty seconds, then I'm done.

[streetlegal]

I'd be interested in seeing that Jean Sabot layout. There are a lot of layout variations that could be explored in relation to ITM playing.

For instance my layout above is really applied to the Major key tunes. But as we know a good many Irish reels, jigs, etc are played in minor keys - most commonly A minor and E minor and switching from minor to major tunes or the other way around can be done to very good effect in ITM. In my layout that would require the player to switch from the major scales that start with a blow note tonic to the minor scales which start on a draw note tonic. That might be an issue - or maybe not depending on the flexibility of the players technique and the tempo being played.

[GregH]

Yeah, it's an Irish music thing. What I've got from reading & watching videos from SlideMeister is that there are so many amazing players on chromatic harmonica, period.  I don't know why anyone would buck the trend for any other reason unless you just had to have that low F# for some reason. And we have our own polkas, so I don't know why we'd miss The Beer Barrel. 

There ya go!  I HATE Irish music!   More accurately: I actually love it for the first thirty seconds, then I'm done.

Yeah, it's an acquired taste*. Plus there's a lot of it around, and not always the good kind. That's why I left the link to Joel Bernstein below - not only is he a very nice chromatic player, but that's the kind of Irish music I like: not too much accompaniment, not super fast, and takes time to explore some interesting tunes.

*Probably like me listening to Midwestern polka bands. Although there was an accordion player called Orest something who won some competitions a few years ago who I thought was a really great player. There's no accounting for taste, even my own. 

[GregH]

I'd be interested in seeing that Jean Sabot layout. There are a lot of layout variations that could be explored in relation to ITM playing.

For instance my layout above is really applied to the Major key tunes. But as we know a good many Irish reels, jigs, etc are played in minor keys - most commonly A minor and E minor and switching from minor to major tunes or the other way around can be done to very good effect in ITM. In my layout that would require the player to switch from the major scales that start with a blow note tonic to the minor scales which start on a draw note tonic. That might be an issue - or maybe not depending on the flexibility of the players technique and the tempo being played.

This is the D version I got off one of his yt videos:

[Scotty]

Greg: this is unrelated to flat-side chromatics, but more to your interest in irish music and having hand difficulties. Some years ago Scottish player Donald Black came to SPAH at the invitation of Winslow - and I was lucky enough to get to hear him, Winslow, James Conway, Paul Davies and others playing fantastic music onstage at what might have been my 2nd(?) SPAH.  Donald's famous for his Echo tremolo playing so later worked with Hohner to develop a specific 'Highlander' A/D Echo. I'm unsure just how many were made --remember reading something online about the last of them being sold off (for an excellent price directly from Britain a few years ago), so I ordered one. Have hardly played it - but clearly they're still out there since those last few were snapped up. The premise was that changes were made to specific keys to allow for 'bagpipe' playing (I believe). I'm wondering if that instrument might also work well for your needs - if you can find one?

scotty

[Crawforde]

Either the Highlander (a beautiful harp if you can find one) or a Paddy richter tuned tremolo would be ideal one handed. Either could be made from a regular tremolo without too much work.

[Scotty]

Either the Highlander (a beautiful harp if you can find one) or a Paddy richter tuned tremolo would be ideal one handed. Either could be made from a regular tremolo without too much work.

- true IF by someone like you with 'real skills' and not by this 'clumsy-handed around any tremolo' person, lol. I wouldn't DARE try to retune a tremolo even if my hands worked well (realize I actually have too many of those too, fwiw). I'm lost under the hood of a tremolo, while a chromatic's layout at least makes some sense to my brain. All I did as a kid was manage to keep my Echo clean (skinniest knitting needles and whatever cleaning product we used then...but tuning wasn't anything I had any clue about). I've learned things in the past decade and a half I should have known all those years ago. Am so glad to hear you're able to play one-handed while you heal, Eric.

scotty

[GregH]

Greg: this is unrelated to flat-side chromatics, but more to your interest in irish music and having hand difficulties. Some years ago Scottish player Donald Black came to SPAH at the invitation of Winslow - and I was lucky enough to get to hear him, Winslow, James Conway, Paul Davies and others playing fantastic music onstage at what might have been my 2nd(?) SPAH.  Donald's famous for his Echo tremolo playing so later worked with Hohner to develop a specific 'Highlander' A/D Echo. I'm unsure just how many were made --remember reading something online about the last of them being sold off (for an excellent price directly from Britain a few years ago), so I ordered one. Have hardly played it - but clearly they're still out there since those last few were snapped up. The premise was that changes were made to specific keys to allow for 'bagpipe' playing (I believe). I'm wondering if that instrument might also work well for your needs - if you can find one?

scotty

Thanks Scotty, that's really cool.  Pat Missin has a nice write-up about the Highlander, and a sound sample on his site.

I've got a couple of tremolos to try (just got a Zuzuki Humming in D, which is pretty nice even if not solo tuned), and they're fun to play even if I'm liking the chromatic more. My son plays fiddle, & he likes those mixolydian tunes where (in D, for example) the C switches between sharp and natural, so chromatic is better for those.

According to Don Meade's "The Harmonica and Irish Traditional Music", he says only tremolo harmonicas get a place in the music competitions in Ireland, and chromatic is relegated to the "Miscellaneous" category. (They have categories and age groups for "traditional" instruments - whistle, flute, pipes, harp, fiddle, concertina, accordion etc. Don't ask me why.  ) That might be one reason why tremolos get used more for this kind of music.  Or maybe they're just jealous of the Scots because they have their own Hohner model. 

[Edward Brock]

There ya go!  I HATE Irish music!   More accurately: I actually love it for the first thirty seconds, then I'm done.
[/quote]

So it's Official? You're not Irish?  Bwaahahahahahahahaha
   

[SlideMeister]

Nah, but love me a good one of doze Klingon operas.

[SlideMeister]

Actually, I figured it out.   The reason I only like the first part is that it doesn't seem to have a bridge and never goes anywhere different. It's usually has a good melody, in a minor key (which is cool) but, it gets redundant after the first time around and I know nothing different is coming till it's over. (IMO) (Prolly just my ADHD showing  ) It's most fun to watch when there's people singing, river dancing,  and playing all the associated instruments. THAT'S actually pretty cool,  but just playing the stuff on my harmonica, not so much. (IMO, of course)

Tony Profondaza

[streetlegal]

In Irish traditional music the vibe is circular. It's all about what you can do within the given patterns - jig 6/8, reel 4/4. In my opinion a lot of players play just too fast to let the tunes breathe and swing. But play me a nice jig at a nice laid back tempo and I couldn't be happier .

[SlideMeister]

ADHD folks like me are easily bored.    That's probably the reason why I absolutely refuse to play l-o-o-o-o-g notes and/or s-l-o-o-w numbers. ANYTHING that doesn't keep my mind engaged, is almost painful.  Turns out that works for Irish music as well; while it's fast, it doesn't have enough variety to keep my very small brain engaged.

[Scotty]

Greg: this is unrelated to flat-side chromatics, but more to your interest in irish music and having hand difficulties. Some years ago Scottish player Donald Black came to SPAH at the invitation of Winslow - and I was lucky enough to get to hear him, Winslow, James Conway, Paul Davies and others playing fantastic music onstage at what might have been my 2nd(?) SPAH.  Donald's famous for his Echo tremolo playing so later worked with Hohner to develop a specific 'Highlander' A/D Echo. I'm unsure just how many were made --remember reading something online about the last of them being sold off (for an excellent price directly from Britain a few years ago), so I ordered one. Have hardly played it - but clearly they're still out there since those last few were snapped up. The premise was that changes were made to specific keys to allow for 'bagpipe' playing (I believe). I'm wondering if that instrument might also work well for your needs - if you can find one?

scotty

Thanks Scotty, that's really cool.  Pat Missin has a nice write-up about the Highlander, and a sound sample on his site.

I've got a couple of tremolos to try (just got a Zuzuki Humming in D, which is pretty nice even if not solo tuned), and they're fun to play even if I'm liking the chromatic more. My son plays fiddle, & he likes those mixolydian tunes where (in D, for example) the C switches between sharp and natural, so chromatic is better for those.

According to Don Meade's "The Harmonica and Irish Traditional Music", he says only tremolo harmonicas get a place in the music competitions in Ireland, and chromatic is relegated to the "Miscellaneous" category. (They have categories and age groups for "traditional" instruments - whistle, flute, pipes, harp, fiddle, concertina, accordion etc. Don't ask me why.  ) That might be one reason why tremolos get used more for this kind of music.  Or maybe they're just jealous of the Scots because they have their own Hohner model.

thanks for the link! been a long time since I looked at Pat Missin's site, so I appreciate reading the official data about the Highlander. Fwiw, I prefer playing a chromatic for my own Scottish 'airs' and songs I remember from my childhood, but pretty much straight, although I will still break out a tremolo now and then. I don't have the control I used to have on those, so even Scotland the Brave sounds better (to me) on a chromatic. I'm too out of practice...probably spend too much of my time on smooooooth jazz nowadays.

scotty

[GregH]

ADHD folks like me are easily bored.    That's probably the reason why I absolutely refuse to play l-o-o-o-o-g notes and/or s-l-o-o-w numbers. ANYTHING that doesn't keep my mind engaged, is almost painful.  Turns out that works for Irish music as well; while it's fast, it doesn't have enough variety to keep my very small brain engaged.

That's why Irish music seems to work for me, too, although I don't get bored easily. I like those melodies & the way they get twisted up by good players. I've often wondered if it's one of those things where learning to play Irish (or whatever) is a challenge, and by the time you've figured that out you're an aficionado. Or you've been turned.    Same thing applies to Old Time, I guess.

I like lots of Jazz for similar reasons - I just haven't learned as much about it. And I can't explain why I've never wanted to play Jazz, because there's so much room there (apart from the reality that I'll never be a good enough player...).

If you think that's bad, try English or Breton dances where they literally play the same tune for 20 minutes. At least we try to throw in some interesting changes along the way.