Easttop Forerunner2.0 Non Valved Chromatics

[Danny G]

Just received a shipment Forerunner 2.0 Non Valved Chromatic harmonicas
This is the first time I've seen chromatic harmonicas available in 12 keys.
I haven't posted them on my website yet so if you're interested email or call me
dannyg@newharmonica.com or cell phone (330) 322-9625
Non Valved
Available in 12 keys i stock
C = 70.54      Db - 83.29     
G -  83.29      D -  83.29     
Ab -83.29      Eb - 83.29     
A  - 83.29      E -   83.29       
Bb -83.29      F -   83.29   
B -  83.29      F# - 83.29 

[Gene Oh]

Hi Danny,
It's good news that new version 2.0 of the valveless Forerunner is available in 12 different keys. My humble question: Is it recommended that a novice in Chrom like me uses keyed Chroms rather than practising 12 different keys on  C Chrom?

Gene

[Danny G]

Is it recommended that a novice in Chrom like me uses keyed Chroms rather than practising 12 different keys on  C Chrom?

I think that depends on who you ask. Personally I prefer using a C chromatic for everything but not everyone feels the same way.
The guy who was Miles Davis's (EDIT and Wynton Marsalis's) teacher (William Vacchiano, former principal trumpet of the New York Philharmonic and Julliard teacher) who played a C trumpet was speaking about keyed instruments said use the tool that works best for you.
SmoJoe who plays keyed chromatics might have some insight about this

[Gene Oh]

To Danny,
Many thanks for your prompt response.
I am seriously thinking of using keyed chromatic harmonicas rather than sticking to only C keyed Chromatic harmonicas.

To SmoJoe,
1. I didn't know that you(SmoJoe) play keyed-chromatics (as Danny said above). My understanding was that you play only 16-hole C chromatics.
If you see this thread, please give some advice on this.

To Bernie,
2. Another senior chromatic player is Bernie who definitely plays keyed chromatic harmonicas.
So, Bernie, can you please give some input on this subject?

To Age,
3. As far as I know, Age used to play a number of Hohner 270 keyed chromatic harmonicas so long before he began to teach himself how to play everything on a single C Chrom. So, Age, can you also give your personal advice on this?

4. To Scotty,
My understanding is that you normally use a Chrom in the key of A, rather than using a C keyed Chom for everything. You also deserve to give your kind opinion on this.

If there be any other SlideMeisters who have tried keyed chromatic harmonicas may contribute to this topic as well.

I love you all,
Cheers,

[Scotty]

Hi Gene: I've been thinking about ordering a Forerunner in A from Danny, but have to wait a bit since the medical bills for our
little kitty cost thousands of dollars and I decided trying to save his life would be my birthday and Christmas this year. It didn't
work, unfortunately, but he was worth the expense. Now I have to not spend anything for a while.

I know that Smokey prefers not to play a 16 chromatic but can. He prefers to play a heavier 12-hole (such as a solid-combed
Hering). He WILL use other keyed chromatics even to  play in C since the 'tone' is different. He's written about this fairly
extensively here on SlideMeister - you could probably find his posts under any topic discussing 'reading' vis-a-vis playing by
ear? For me, I once played only 16hole chromatics in C and still have them and DO still play them here and there. But, once
I discovered the CX-12, which I consider an absolutely perfect instrument (IF they made it in a 16 - its only flaw for my taste),
I just had to buy one or two (a C and a Bb) and then an A and G. Something told me I'd love them in these other keys and
after a while I realized I only wanted to hear the sound and tone of the A (probably it's closest to my singing voice). Either way,
it 'fits' me better than any other chromatic - to the degree that I had my Psardo GoldBar also made in key of A. It's a lovely key which seems to fit so much of the music I love. For what it's worth, I don't only play IN the key of A on my A chromatic. I realize that might sound confusing but I pretty much use it to play everything - except something which might be very complicated. Then I might try a C again - or then a flat key (a Bb or Eb) to see if those will work better - mostly when I'm playing along with already-recorded - usually sax smooth jazz tunes. When I'm playing by myself I can use whichever instrument I choose.

I don't play similarly to other people, since I mostly play what I hear in my head, so I can't really advise you which way to go. I do think you'd love an A BUT if you can only follow the notes on the page then it might not work for you. IF you can hear the music and play along with it, then another keyed-chromatic might be a lot of fun. What Danny said is absolutely correct: it's 'using the right tool for the job' and no one will judge you - basically no one else has any idea what key of instrument you're using unless you have a big label on it (something I do) or tell them. So if no one knows but you - the sky's the limit as I see it.

Hope this helps in a small way.

scotty

[Gene Oh]

Hi Gene: I've been thinking about ordering a Forerunner in A from Danny, but have to wait a bit since the medical bills for our
little kitty cost thousands of dollars and I decided trying to save his life would be my birthday and Christmas this year. It didn't
work, unfortunately, but he was worth the expense. Now I have to not spend anything for a while.

I know that Smokey prefers not to play a 16 chromatic but can. He prefers to play a heavier 12-hole (such as a solid-combed
Hering). He WILL use other keyed chromatics even to  play in C since the 'tone' is different. He's written about this fairly
extensively here on SlideMeister - you could probably find his posts under any topic discussing 'reading' vis-a-vis playing by
ear? For me, I once played only 16hole chromatics in C and still have them and DO still play them here and there. But, once
I discovered the CX-12, which I consider an absolutely perfect instrument (IF they made it in a 16 - its only flaw for my taste),
I just had to buy one or two (a C and a Bb) and then an A and G. Something told me I'd love them in these other keys and
after a while I realized I only wanted to hear the sound and tone of the A (probably it's closest to my singing voice). Either way,
it 'fits' me better than any other chromatic - to the degree that I had my Psardo GoldBar also made in key of A. It's a lovely key which seems to fit so much of the music I love. For what it's worth, I don't only play IN the key of A on my A chromatic. I realize that might sound confusing but I pretty much use it to play everything - except something which might be very complicated. Then I might try a C again - or then a flat key (a Bb or Eb) to see if those will work better - mostly when I'm playing along with already-recorded - usually sax smooth jazz tunes. When I'm playing by myself I can use whichever instrument I choose.

I don't play similarly to other people, since I mostly play what I hear in my head, so I can't really advise you which way to go. I do think you'd love an A BUT if you can only follow the notes on the page then it might not work for you. IF you can hear the music and play along with it, then another keyed-chromatic might be a lot of fun. What Danny said is absolutely correct: it's 'using the right tool for the job' and no one will judge you - basically no one else has any idea what key of instrument you're using unless you have a big label on it (something I do) or tell them. So if no one knows but you - the sky's the limit as I see it.

Hope this helps in a small way.

scotty

Hi Scotty,
Many thanks for your prompt response. As I told you before, I ordered the A-keyed ForeRunner 2.0 some time ago and it has already been delivered to me (Since the Easttop Company Shop in China is located closer to NZ, I directly contacted them online for the purchase). I have test-played it, and as expected, it has better quality than the previous version (The main improvement is almost no slider-clicking sound. You know what the CX-12 clicking sound is. I don't like the noise when recording a tune.) And the first note in hole 1 is A3, not A4 on your piano keyboard, which I really like. I compared this first note sound against that of the A-keyed Hohner CX-12 I have. I was surprised to find that the sound and layout of the notes were identical.

As for your playing A-keyed Chrom for everything, I totally agree. I have tried to play "You Raise Me Up" on A-keyed Chrom. as if I were playing a C-keyed harp. It worked perfectly, with the only difference in the color of the sound (The "You Raise Me UP" in "Eb major" played in A-keyed Chrom. produced the sound of "C major" in the C-keyed Chrom.) So, in theory, if I am able to play a C Chrom. in 12 different keys, I may simply grab any-keyed Chrom. and can play the tune. The difference is the end result. It is "transposing" into a different key.

I hope this will give you some idea of what I have experienced, Scotty.

Gene

[Age]

To Age,
3. As far as I know, Age used to play a number of Hohner 270 keyed chromatic harmonicas so long before he began to teach himself how to play everything on a single C Chrom. So, Age, can you also give your personal advice on this?

Yeah I used to get all 12 keys out of my A, B, C, D, E, F and G, but felt like a suck-harp player carrying around all those instruments, so I started weaning myself off of them, starting with easier keys like F & G. I'm still going through the process cuz I'm too lazy (or maybe busy) to play for more than a few minutes a day, but the only one that I really struggle with is B. I can fumble through F# A and E, and getting respectable with all the rest. I had to play something in A last week and sure enough, I cheated by using an A 270. No shame in that. The thing that makes me want to get better is that when I started playing all the keys on a C, I get confused playing the other Chromes in their tonic keys. So what I suggest is to put the time in that it takes to get proficient in all keys on a C (or whatever your favorite key is)

If I can do it, (with my ADHD) anyone can. 

I mean, it's a whole new world, and I'm so glad I kicked off the "trainer wheels." 

[Scotty]

Yes, Gene - I'd forgotten you'd already gotten an A. My fault. What you are doing is playing in the tonic key of each instrument
as if you were playing in C. Nothing wrong with that, many people do, and it's perfectly workable. Many of the studio musicians
hired to play on CD's or behind a singer, will often take other keys - whether diatonic or chromatic, depending on their skill level.
Most of the studio musicians I spoke with early on were quite open with saying they had every key of Hohner 270's in their gig
bags. While I grew up playing a C instrument (that's all there was available to me), I always felt that something was missing
since I also played piano and often couldn't match the sound of my chromatic to the piano....most likely due to a sag in
tuning of one or t'other. At the time I knew absolutely nothing at all about maintenance of a chromatic instrument or that a piano needed tuning - and my mother would never have spent the money to have that done, lol.

When it hit my ear wrong, it bothered me a great deal. I can play easily on a 16 in C - but simply far prefer 'that' lovely tone of an A.  Incidentally (and if you look on the very, very large CX-12 thread), I'm one whose cx-12's don't 'clack' the way others
seem to. It might be because I don't hit the button but press it in? Unsure, but I don't have that noise, nor have any of mine
cracked or broken at the back-spring slots. At last count I have 13/14 CX-12's in different keys (some are duplicates).  Still love them.

scotty

[Bernie9]

 Quote from Gene: "To Bernie,
2. Another senior chromatic player is Bernie who definitely plays keyed chromatic harmonicas.
So, Bernie, can you please give some input on this subject?"

Well Gene, my expert opinion is that I am not an expert, but can intuitively play most
tunes by ear, and , at 81, don't see using countless hours of my remaining finite time to do otherwise. Also. I am not a tongue blocker, or particularly clean player to begin with, and I surmise that I would need to be more accurate.  The third reason may be not be accurate, but if I am not using a tenor, the keys above C will force me into high territory, which I am not fond of.
Thanks for asking
Bernie

[Keith]

Just thought I'd add my opinion, though I'm not a good player like the rest are, & I too, think that people play other keys because of the tone of the instrument.

I used to love playing tunes on my Tenor/low C chroms in the low octave - those deep tones.

I bought an E, great deep tone, but seldom actually play it, even though I only play as if it were in C, (therefore transposing down) - I have come to mainly using my orchestra tuned chroms, as they give me the lower notes that you often find in tunes, & this way I don't need my Tenor to play the tunes that I like.

(I have to play from notation or tab, just can't seem to play by ear like most seem able to do.)

P.S. I play all my instruments as if they are in the key of C, because most printed music is written that way.

[Danny G]

It's possible to play in all 12 keys on a C chromatic.
Realizing that figuring out how to transpose keys would be a pain in the wazoo (for me)  but why wouldn't the same be true about any keyed chromatic?

[Scotty]

It's possible to play in all 12 keys on a C chromatic.
Realizing that figuring out how to transpose keys would be a pain in the wazoo (for me)  but why wouldn't the same be true about any keyed chromatic?

Danny: as I play more and more on an A (just about everything I try now), I guess I am fitting what you're describing above -
only I have zero idea what key I might be playing in because I pay no attention to the keys, just the sound, but I think you're
right. It might mean though for a lifelong C player, having to relearn all the instinctive playing they're used to and
patterns - which would have to change a bit? (At least, that's what I think would have to happen). When I played a G for most
of the time (before I bought my first Super 64), I automatically played with the button in almost exclusively, so had to re-adapt
back to how I played as a kid on a C. Now on the A I just follow my ear to play the music i love so much. At this point in time I
think all bets are off and just about anything goes - so the more keys available, the better off the chromatic community is.
Like Keith I LOVE those deep low notes on tenors - but also other deeper keys- especially when playing along with
baritone sax players.  On the high end of a Super 64, though - one can actually match Kenny G's soprano sax playing. I have.


scotty
PS: funny, but I just realized something while reading this thread. Even if I've played a song 100 times I never do focus on the
patterns. I approach each time I play a tune as if it's the first time since I'm again listening to that musical voice singing or
playing it in my head, so it probably sounds different on every occasion. Have to ponder this a wee bit more.

Happy New Year to you, Lin and your family - and all SlideMeisters. Be safe out there.

[Gene Oh]

Hellow my respected SlideMeisters,

Many, many thanks for sharing your experiences and opinions. After reading all your postings and thinking about this topic, I came to the following.

1.   C Chromatic harmonica is useful.
a.   When I want to detect the key of a song while listening to it
b.   When I want to play along with Youtube songs
c.   When I want to play a song that modulates (i.e. more than two keys in a song)
d.   When I want to play with a group of musicians (or be involved in a gig)

2.   Keyed Chromatic harmonica is useful,
a.   When I want to play a song easier with confidence. It doesn’t matter what key a song is written in. I simply grab the same-key harmonica.
b.   When I want to play several songs continuously written in the same key
c.   When I want to play a song that is written in only one key but has accidentals (# or b) Unlike the tremolo harmonica where I need to stack harmonicas, I can push the slide for the incidentals.

Therefore, how about doing as below?
a.   In principle, I stick to the C keyed Chromatic harmonica and continue practising using the C Chrom.
b.   However, it will take years before I can reach that stage when I feel comfortable playing songs in 12 different keys. I am already 74 years old, and I may not progress that much before I reach 80 or even 85.
c.   When I feel clumsy playing a song on a C Chrom (particularly the songs written in D, E, A and B keys), I grab an A-keyed Chromatic harmonica. Then it may become much easier and smoother.
d.   When I still feel uncomfortable, even with the A-key Chrom, I grab the same-keyed Chrom (Thankfully valveless harmonicas are available in 12 different keys at very reasonable prices).
e.   When a song is written in more than two keys (i.e. modulates more than two times), I still stick to C.
f.   When I especially like the tone of a certain tonic keyed Chromatic harmonica for a certain song, I may use the relevant keyed Chromatic harmonica.

[John Broecker]

Hello, Gene.

I always look for the easiest way to play a slide chromatic.

The easiest way is to play factory-keyed harmonicas. But,
there is a cost factor. Buying all 12 keys would be too costly,
so I have just 6 keyed harps. Each factory-keyed harp has
2 major keys pre-set: "Do" and "Do#". Each solo placement,
factory-keyed slide chromatic, is fully chromatic.

I have several slideless chromatics in C. They remain in the
drawer. They aren't practical. Why should I study 11 other
reed placements (11 more major keys on one harp) to play
the harmonica?
 
I'm a harmonica first position player, using factory-keyed
harmonicas. When the written music is in the key of F, or
D minor, I use an F harp. When there is no written music,
I find "Do" of the tune, and use the chosen key harp.

There is another observation. Playing keyed harps offers
more factory-installed chords than one chromatic played
in all scales. On one harmonica, the farther we get from
the factory-installed key (adding #s or bs), the fewer
chords are available.

That's no problem if you are a melody-only player, and
slide chromatic harps in the solo system reed placement
don't have many useable chords in a factory-installed key.

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

JB

[Gene Oh]

Hello, Gene.

I always look for the easiest way to play a slide chromatic.

The easiest way is to play factory-keyed harmonicas. But,
there is a cost factor. Buying all 12 keys would be too costly,
so I have just 6 keyed harps. Each factory-keyed harp has
2 major keys: "Do" and "Do#". Each solo reed placement,
factory-keyed slide chromatic, is fully chromatic.

I have several slideless chromatics in C. They remain in the
drawer. They aren't practical. Why should I study 11 other
reed placements (11 more major keys on one harp) to play
the harmonica?
 
I'm a first position player, using factory-keyed harmonicas.
When the written music is in the key of F, or D minor, I use
an F harp. When there is no written music, I find "Do" of the
tune, and use the chosen key harp.

There is another observation. Playing keyed harps offers
more factory-installed chords than one chromatic played
in all scales. On one harmonica, the farther we get from
the factory-installed key (adding #s or bs), the fewer
chords are available.

That's no problem if you are a melody-only player, and
slide chromatic harps in the solo system reed placement
don't have many useable chords in a factory-installed key.

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

JB

Hi John,
You are such a wonderful teacher. I will follow your instruction. My harp journey will be much easier if I follow your way.
Gene

[John Broecker]

Thanks for the compliment, Gene.
You are a Harmonica Friend.

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

JB

[Bernie9]

May I say that I subscribe to your method as well.

Bernie

[John Broecker]

Hello, Bernie.

I don't know if the Forerunner slide
chromatic harp is factory-set in all 12
separate major keys.

Playing several different-keyed slide
chromatics is not my invention, but it
is my method, and others use the same
method, including Our Friend Keith.

Assorted factory-keyed slide chromatics
have been in use for at least 95 years.
Mostly in the C, G and A keys, but also
in most other major keys.

If we want more chords than offered
with the solo system, we'd use the 10-
hole Richter system reed placement harps.

Many 10-hole slide chromatics are sold
by manufacturers in assorted keys, mostly
C and G, but custom-made harps are
sold by Seydel and other companies in
whatever key requested. Seydel offers a
12-hole Richter system chromatic harp,
in C, with other keys customized.

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

JB

[Danny G]

John
The Forerunner is a slide chromatic, it does not have wind saver valves and is available in G, A, B, Bb, C, D, E, F, F#, Ab, Db & Eb

[John Broecker]

Thanks for the correction, Danny.
I re-read your post of Dec. 28th.

Do you know of any no-slide
chromatics that are available
in factory-set keys other than C?

The standard 2-octave bass harp is
sold in E phyrgian (E-E), a mode of C.
The standard extended bass (E-C),
is E phyrgian or C major, almost
2 and 2/3rds octaves.

As far as transposing goes, the easiest
way to avoid transposition is to ask a
keyboard player or bass player for the
key, and use that keyed harp.

Traditionally, Hohner and other companies
didn't sell F# slide chromatics. I don't know
the present factory-set keys.

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

JB

[Gnarly He Man]

This is great, should get more folks on board with the chromatic.

[wolfman]

 Hey Gene,did you get your Forerunner 2.0 yet ?

  Roman

[Gene Oh]

How to detect the key of a song?
My method:
I normally detect the key of a song I listen by playing along the last note of the song using my c chrom. Then  I confirm if my detection is correcy by playing along the same tune with the same key tremolo harp.
Gene

[Gene Oh]

Hey Gene,did you get your Forerunner 2.0 yet ?

  Roman

Not yet. They (a full set of 12) have arrived in NZ and are going thru customs now.
Cheers,
Gene

[Danny G]

John
Seydel's Non Slider Chromatic is available in LC, LD, LE, LF, G, A, Bb, C & D

[Age]

Hey Gene,did you get your Forerunner 2.0 yet ?

  Roman

Not yet. They (a full set of 12) have arrived in NZ and are going thru customs now.
Cheers,
Gene

Okay Bro, Now you're excited, aye?

[Gene Oh]

Hi Age,
1. Yes, I am excited and look forward to the arrival of these 12 keyed Chromatics (ForeRunner), probably early next week.

2. I am well aware of your loving advice based on your years of experience saying that I'd better train myself until I  get comfortable with 12 keys on C Chrom.

3. I have faithfully followed your advice and done my best for the last four years practicing scales or songs (at least an hour a day) in 12 keys on C Chromatics. Thankfully I have progressed quite a bit, as you know. However, it will still take years before I can reach the stage where I feel comfortable playing songs in 12 different keys. I will be 75 years old this year and I may not progress that much before I reach 80. In a sense, I am one of those whose years are counted. Under such circumstances, I have decided to "enjoy" playing the Chrom "with confidence" in the songs I play. That's why I decided to follow John's advice --- the easier method.
With love,
Gene

[Age]

Whatever keeps you happy brother!

[John Broecker]

Hello, Danny.

Thanks for the Seydel no-slide chromatic
information. I was totally unaware of that.

Best Regards, Stay Healthy

JB

[Scotty]

"That's why I decided to follow John's advice --- the easier method.
With love,
Gene"

Gene: Many of us follow this same advice and thinking. In effect it's 'use the best tool for the job'. And your reasoning
(re your years left) are quite sound. It never made sense to me personally to (imho) 'waste' years devoting myself to
learning to play everything on a key of C when its sound didn't feel right to me and I could so easily achieve what I wanted
on another keyed chromatic. mostly the A and Bb. Our way isn't for everyone, and that's good too. We all have different aims
in re music and life. I know mine and I'm very happy that you've now found yours.

Much happiness and I'm so glad you won't be giving up playing! Can't wait to get your feedback about your new instruments.
I suspect that after a year or so you might narrow it down to 3-4 of them at most.

Love, scotty